The Divorced Jack in the Box Dad / Co-parenting - Eran Magen, Ph.D. || DPTSP #041 || David M. Webb

[00:00:15] Welcome to the DONT PICK THE SCAB PODCAST with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community To thrive in their divorce recovery either before during or after a divorce Check it out. Welcome our body up there to don't pick the scab podcast with Iran

[00:00:34] my gun and He is a counselor that deals with divorcing dads and we're gonna talk to him And I'm very I've got some good questions for him because I've never had a Guest who specializes in divorcing dads. So this is this gonna be interesting

[00:00:52] Let's go with a little bit of your background and I got some questions for you. I am ready How did you get into this divorcing dads realm? It's really an intersection of a few different areas of interest that I have in a majority of my life

[00:01:09] I run a business a company that I started that helps universities Prevent suicides among students and so suicide prevention is kind of front and center for me much of my week And then another thing that I've been doing for the past decade or so is parents skills training

[00:01:25] And they do this through school districts all over the country So helping parents form and maintain strong connections with their kids and then somewhere along the way I separated from my son's mom and went through this process and it took me really years to come out of it

[00:01:40] And I got a lot of help and support along the way and I wanted to help Make it a little easier for the person or many people probably to go through it And as I was learning more and more I realized this is a really area

[00:01:52] huge need the the suicide rates are Very high among divorcing men divorcing dads And there are just not a ton of resources out there as I'm sure you know having started this part Right, there's not a lot if you type divorce into any podcast search engine

[00:02:11] Or in the podcast thing app that you use a lot of stuff comes up I would say 90% of it women yep probably 80% of it specifically for women

[00:02:21] And it's great that women have all the support and it sucks that men don't and I want it to be part of a force That helps with that and specifically to help make sure that divorcing dads are keeping Not just themselves

[00:02:36] Healthy and sane but also staying connected to their kids I think it's such a tragedy when dads kind of recede into the background or kind of give up On the kids and then it's so bad for everybody. It's bad for the dad. It's tragic for the kids

[00:02:48] I just wanted to be Part of part of the force that helps maintain the connection There you go and of course if you're a dad you got to have a kid so that's a that's the one thing

[00:02:59] I think we talked about before before we started the podcast that my kids are older and It's I've seen it talk to people It's so different when your kid is young compared to when your kid is older because like you said before

[00:03:13] When your kid is young, that's all they know they got a couple house to the go to things like that So go and speak to that Yeah, I think like almost anything when we grow up with something it just seems normal to us and

[00:03:25] Look reality is right now in the US about one out of two marriages and divorce Right and so there are a lot of kids out there whose parents are divorced It's no longer this kind of a shameful thing to be carrying around

[00:03:40] A lot of kids who are the kids of divorced parents take no issue with it Nobody ever told them it's an issue because it no longer is which is great And so if you started out your conscious life With your parents not living together

[00:03:54] It seems totally normal and there are other kids around you for whom it's like that But obviously it's very different if you grew up five ten Fifteen years with your parents living in the same house

[00:04:05] Maybe some tension maybe not you're not sure what's happening that and then eventually it blows up and they Separate there's usually some drama and you're old enough to understand parts of the drama that are happening Parts of the drama that is happening

[00:04:17] It's it's very different when you have to to actually go through the change than just growing up with it normal Let's go ahead and hit the elephant the room the C word Co-parenting my co-parenting skills sucked at first. I mean I was horrible. I

[00:04:33] Was a hot mess but over time I was able to refine them and we got out of schedule We did the 5050 week on week off which really worked for us But the one thing because they were older where I had to stress, you know

[00:04:48] Dad's house is dad's house and mom's house is mom's house. So the rules don't extend between these walls but my ex was trying to extend those rules and So we struggled for quite a while until everybody was on the same page and then it worked out

[00:05:04] But there was a gray area where it was tough Yeah, and it sounds like you were working to get on the same page about not needing to be on the same page

[00:05:14] Exactly. Yeah, yeah, and it was literally it was definitely a control issue to control was huge. Yeah Yeah, this is something that happens often. We have strong ideas about how we want our

[00:05:27] Kids raised and we try to remote control the other parent right or tell them when things are happening That we don't like and we'd like them to do Definitely it's a big deal on the other hand one of the most useful things that I heard about

[00:05:40] Co-parenting and the the benefit that it provides kids is that you get the unmitigated version of each parent Whereas when both parents are living together and adjusting to one another and compromising you get a muffled blended version of the two parents But when each parent is

[00:05:57] Separate you get the full parents if you have one parent who is extremely adventurous and one parent who's extremely studious You get both which is a great thing as opposed to having kind of adventurous but kind of studious I'm giving very, you know stereotypical kind of caricature examples

[00:06:14] But I think I think you see what I mean. So there's there's a great benefit to it But yeah learning to co-parent is enormously important and I think one of the biggest challenges is that at the beginning Anything that can be divided is seen as a proxy for

[00:06:31] Who's right? so people get very Upset about needing to share money and people get very upset about needing to share kids in any way that doesn't feel Exactly according to what they want Right because and part of it is because of this perception that

[00:06:55] If the other parent is getting their way It somehow means that I'm less right that I'm entitled to less justice And I think the faster we can separate these things The better for us and the better for the kids

[00:07:11] I have very little expertise in terms of the technicalities of divorce and how Poverty is separated and all of that I can just say that accepting Legal reality and moving on is a lot easier than trying to change the law because in my case

[00:07:25] It's really special because she did this to me or she did that to me. It's not special in your case It's just the law. Yeah, and it does not reflect who's fault is it or who tried harder or anything like that

[00:07:36] And the same with the kids there's there's a common Piece of advice going around has been going around for a long time to treat the kids as a business and to kind of to be professional about it

[00:07:48] And I think it's sort of right, you know, it conveys a weird tone I think to think of a kid as a business but to separate out arguments and disagreements between the parents okay, and to be able to focus on the benefit of the child is obviously

[00:08:02] Obviously better, but I guess to close the circle With what you started. Yeah Accepting the fact that we can't control the other parents parenting We only get to intervene when there's actual risk Child and otherwise we can register our protest Right, we can say or email however

[00:08:19] We're communicating and saying you know he said this and I don't know if that's true or not because kids say things But it was a little concerning for me And I think maybe something like this could be better

[00:08:28] But you know just f y and if you want to discuss them open to it and if not That's okay What do you say the men where they deal they're dealing with a parental alienation that's the new buzzword to yeah, so Here's what I'm

[00:08:46] Imagining when you say parental alienation. I'm imagining one parent who is actively trying to create Distance whether emotional or physical between the child and the other parent Yes, yes talking about so so an extreme example of that would be one parent

[00:09:07] Telling the child, you know, the other parent doesn't love you at all or the other parent is really dangerous Or the other parent can't be trusted or something like that extreme version and I Guess there are two paths to dealing with that one is legal and one is

[00:09:28] the rest of life and I'm not a legal expert And so I'm not gonna opine on that at all other than to say that if it's getting to a point

[00:09:37] That feels extreme consult with a legal expert consult with a lawyer because there are versions of that that are just illegal And courts frown on that enormously because courts generally take the position

[00:09:49] That it's good for kids to be connected to both of their parents as long as neither parent is dangerous to them But the legal side of the legal stuff aside In terms of dealing it dealing with it in reality. I really encourage parents

[00:10:08] To not worry about it, I just don't have a More smart way sounding Being to say no that came out the wrong way I don't have a smarter sounding way to say it if

[00:10:22] Your kid is with the other parent and the other parent is saying mean things about you And then your kid comes in is with you and your kid experiences you as wonderful The direct experience is so much more important than what they're doing And

[00:10:39] To not engage in this kind of mutual mud slinging to just be be the good parent who's less stress It's super stressful for kids to hear about things about their parents From the other it's very uncomfortable. They don't want to hear it literally

[00:10:53] And so if you are the parent where they can come to you and just enjoy being your kid and not hear about your fights with Your ex and not hear about you defending yourself or attacking the other person

[00:11:09] It's gonna be great for them to be with you and they they will learn who you are by being with you Not from hearing about you from other people So I would say it's not only the moral high road. It's also the the relational high road

[00:11:24] It's just more pleasant for them and there's very little to worry about as long as you're being Awesome with your kids. Yeah, and then I heard you know other times where it's it's so contentious that there's no

[00:11:40] Visitation with with the dad and one of the people I talked to said hey the dad needs to reach it reach out when he can Forever never stop because eventually that kid will say hey you never gave up on me

[00:11:55] And I appreciate it. You know, they might be 30 40 years old, but they say do not stop reaching out Yeah, I'm a hundred percent I think the majority of your kids life one is probably going to happen when your kid is older than 18

[00:12:11] Yeah, hey, especially if he's a male. Yeah sure and so Yeah, keep reaching out make it clear that you want the contact that you're there that you're open to it Even if they say no, I mean you don't well

[00:12:25] I mean that's really extreme cases when alienation essentially was achieved, right? Yeah If you have no visitation, you're probably still allowed to write They're probably still allowed to have other forms of communication and yeah never never giving up But it also translates into not giving up

[00:12:44] If necessary on a legal path right so you try to communicate with your ex you try to work it out You can't try to mediate and if none of that works To pursue whatever means possible so that when your kid is

[00:12:56] 24 and coming to visit you and you're having quiet day and your kid is kind of quietly angry and looking at you and saying why did Why didn't you see me? You can say I was fighting really hard the whole time

[00:13:08] And best case scenarios to never have this conversation because by the time your kid is 24 Your presence in your kids life is just so obvious. It doesn't occur to your kid to ask and you know that it happened because

[00:13:21] You insisted on it and I think that's our opportunity to be superheroes to know that we are fighting Say, you know that is coming like I am on my way I just have to fight a couple of fights before I can get to you

[00:13:35] I have to get over big hurdles, but this is you with yourself You know you talk about it that your friends celebrate you none of this needs to reach your kids awareness

[00:13:44] That's the best highest level of performance is when your kid is totally unaware of how much you have to fight to be in his or her life So things that run in the background

[00:13:55] Very much. Yeah, I think the more we can shield kids from from conflict and disagreement between parents The better it's just so incredibly stressful for kids to be torn between parents to end This is another big temptation as a parent too as a divorce parent

[00:14:12] To say oh, you know the other parent is doing all these bad things But I'm trying and they're making it so hard and especially if the other parent is saying those things but

[00:14:20] Shield them from that as much as possible have your conflict or disagreements separate. It's not hard to do Right when you're with your kid focus on being with your kid and enjoying time together, but shielding them completely

[00:14:37] What are some of the common things that themes or or conditions or problems that that you encounter with Some of your divorcing dads divorce dads some of the themes Internally I would say It takes people a while to Come to terms with the fact of the

[00:14:58] separation not so much that it happened but Getting over the self-doubt and the shame and the guilt and wondering what could I have done differently? And you know, whether it's what I could have done differently in the relationship

[00:15:09] Or you know should I have even been in this relationship at the first place and all of that There's a lot of soul searching that happens and it's okay for it to happen It's important, but that's that's something that people put a fair amount of energy into

[00:15:21] another is figuring out how to be With the kids because now it's it's very pure time and it's it's a really special opportunity And for some dads it's it's a challenge too because now there are no distractions

[00:15:36] There's nobody else you need to figure out what to do you need to plan the time with the kids and I say it's an opportunity because it can be amazing quality time Oh, definitely quality time. Yeah, and again unmitigated You don't have to compromise with anyone

[00:15:51] You need to decide on things agree about the fun stuff to do with your kids or the important stuff to do with your kids And you can just decide and do but for some people that takes a little while to kind of rev up to that point

[00:16:05] Realize that it's really up to them and on them Big challenge that I see is what I've started calling a jack-in-the-box dad phenomenon where You know, I like that man, I like that oh But it's boom

[00:16:26] Exactly so the idea is that when the yeah, you were doing this motion right of winding and then the dad So So this happens when the dad is only really fully alive and happy when the kid is around

[00:16:40] Mm-hmm, and at other times the dad hides in his box basically and wait for the next time the kid is around and I think it's it's a it's a huge challenge right because Because it's really sad. It's sad for the dad. It's not a great little of life

[00:16:56] The kid once the kid realizes that something like this is happening and then the kid can start feeling guilty whenever leaving and so like it's just a bad Bad story for everybody. And so learning how to enjoy life is

[00:17:11] Crucial and learning not to feel guilty about enjoying life This man no one's ever talked about that ever because I remember struggling when the kids That week when they weren't with me I struggled until I figured it out

[00:17:24] But then on the flip side of that which kind of made me sad but but I had to laugh at it After having them for a week. I couldn't wait for them go to their moms

[00:17:35] I felt so guilty but being a single parent for a week with three kids. It was brutal Yeah, so there's a there's a given go there. Yeah, that's off to you Yeah, I think it's a lot and I think that there comes a time when every divorced dad

[00:17:54] realizes With a panic that he's living the dream Explain that one high quality. He has super high quality time with his kids. Oh And then he has super high quality alone time No negotiations or compromising this honey, okay, you watched them on Tuesdays. Yeah

[00:18:12] Right you have a bunch of time now. I'm not saying that this is I'm not saying this is better than being in a happy relationship, right? But I'm saying it is actually pretty good if you allow it to be good if you're not sitting in your box

[00:18:30] moping and sad When your kids leave but instead say all right time to go on that bike ride Life can be pretty nice. Oh, yeah this way and the happier you are in your life

[00:18:43] The better a father you will be and the more your kid will absorb that energy or kids will absorb that energy from you Right, so I think that's that's a huge thing

[00:18:55] That's one of the major things that I focus on this idea of learning to enjoy your life Stay out of the box all the time Unless you're sleeping Man, I got my mind right now is ejecting the box coming out little spring and a little hat and

[00:19:13] Thanks a lot That's gonna be my mind all day today, you know kind of that song you can't get rid of now Now I can't get rid of Jack in the box and I'm not talking about burgers, baby. I'm talking about the jack in the box

[00:19:24] Oh my god. Oh What is it just with fathers? Boundaries is something that we talk about a lot on it on the other podcast Setting boundaries with your kids a lot of the kids my kids are smart number one and they know how to push boundaries and I

[00:19:43] And I've talked to fathers where they be like they feel guilty so they Take the boundaries and they kind of like get lax on them And that's not the time to be lax on boundaries man

[00:19:56] You almost have to have more boundaries when you have them by yourself. What do you speak to that? I think that there's a way in general for parents to be Firm and clear without needing to be harsh

[00:20:07] And I think that mixing those two things together is where people get into trouble because many people don't want to get into conflict with their kids, especially if they're Feeling that their connection with their kids is tenuous

[00:20:19] They're not seeing them that often or as often as they would like even Even if they're seeing them half the time people might still be worried and so People will let things slide right parents will not enforce

[00:20:33] Boundaries or limits until they explode and then it comes out in a really bad way, right? And that's preventable That's unnecessary. And so learning to Set and enforce boundaries early on in a clear way. That's not harsh early prevents it from needing to be harsh and so I

[00:20:56] I'm a huge proponent of essentially collaborative parenting treating the child at any age really even quite young Treating the child as a sort of partner or mentee Right so that the kid says can I have another? dessert and I go no

[00:21:17] But to say listen if we have too much dessert It can feel bad later on Right and it's okay to have dessert. It's fun. It's good. There's no problem with it, but we just want to make sure not to have too much

[00:21:32] How much do you think would be too much? And he goes? I don't know two thousand pieces of chocolate You say well, I would suggest starting with maybe one Right, let's wait for a minute and see if you want more some but but basically conversations about these things

[00:21:46] Then you know fewer kids are bigger and they say okay. I'm out near saying what do you mean out when when you're coming back So come come back whenever oh, yeah

[00:21:55] And and you want to say whenever so one version of this is say listen either you hear by ten or staying out tonight Like that's not great. Mm-hmm, and there's a whole set of

[00:22:06] Confusing considerations that come in when the kids can go complain to their mom and your divorce like that's that's stressful But instead to say listen hold up Hold on come in come in and have the conversation like remember the basics have the conversation in a calm way

[00:22:19] Not shouting, you know across ten yards, but like sitting down talking for a minute saying listen when you're out I worry Right plus you have school tomorrow. So let's see what are ways we can we can help this

[00:22:33] Work for both of us. What do you think? Okay? How can you help me not worry? And maybe you figure out a check-in system or maybe you figure out a way

[00:22:40] And then you may say there's school tomorrow. How much sleep do you think you need because you know I don't want you coming back at 3 a.m. And your kid might go like well, okay I mean that's a fair point

[00:22:50] But five hours gonna be enough and you're like listen five hours you're gonna be but it's a conversation right and I think you can get I know you can get very far with conversations. The trick is to have the conversations

[00:23:04] At a time when both people are able to do it Right if your kid is late to get somewhere and trying to run out the door That's not a good time to have the conversation

[00:23:11] Correct having in an hour earlier is a great time. Yeah, and so talking about general kind of Policies and how we do things here can work really well, especially from inviting the kids to be part of the conversation And then deciding

[00:23:25] My divorce was contentious like I told you Co-parenting was contentious contentious. What do you suggest to divorcing dads when you're in that situation? Where co-parenting is tough You just have to stick to your guns. So so what I did was it went from, you know, no no no

[00:23:45] To a conversation with my ex and it was tough But I realized it from the standpoint of my kids. I was in it for my kids not for me or my ex So when I made them important, I was able to communicate to her just just enough

[00:24:00] So one of my podcasts the lawyer said Biff be if be brief informative friendly and firm and man, I wish would have known that 15 20 years ago that would have helped me a lot

[00:24:15] But yeah, but those but those four things I think kind of wrap wrap it up for a contentious Divorce co-parenting scheme. So what do you think about that? Yeah, I think the the Biff framework is fantastic. I think both parents

[00:24:31] Especially soon after divorce and by soon after divorce, I mean like the first five years are pretty Reactive to each other. Mm-hmm if it's contentious again for some couples that the breakup works great I know that just just

[00:24:46] Astonishes me when I hear that and I see that that's so awesome Yeah, and it's beautiful, you know to see parents who can actually rely on each other as the world's best babysitter And they're flexible and they're helpful. I think that's that's so amazing

[00:24:58] That's how it should be that would be so nice And then there are times when it's not and when it's not and when it's contentious the There are so many things to disagree on that usually the intensity goes up for a while

[00:25:12] I know for the first two three years as people are even processing the separation going through the stages of grief really right anger comes back into the picture and so The brief part is very important right to try to not be in your ex's face all the time

[00:25:27] Just like you don't want the X in your face all the time or in your inbox for that matter right so brief and and think hard about what's worth even

[00:25:37] Communicating about a kick your battles. Yeah, yeah, certainly what's worth arguing over because if you don't like your kids, you know shorts We're gonna write saying like look my kid doesn't need to be wearing Mickey Mouse shorts, right? He doesn't even like looney tunes

[00:25:53] Why do you do this to him? That's an unnecessary He has to take a step back and think I don't know if you don't like looney tunes. Come on man. It gets a little serious

[00:26:05] I mean, I guess if we talked Star Trek vs. Star Wars that would get real But you know picking picking your battles is very important. I think that In-person communication or even synchronous communication can be very activating because when we move fast

[00:26:25] The adrenaline kicks in we feel like you know, it feels more and more like a fight It's hard so asynchronous communication like texting or emailing is great emailing is even less real time feeling than texting and so emailing is also great

[00:26:42] And so all of this is leading me to say Prioritize email like think really hard. Is this even something we need to discuss and if we do pick email and when you write the email make it pretty short and

[00:26:58] When you're writing that email, I'll give a couple of suggestions Like you said, you know informative friendly firm, I think all of these are wonderful. I think framing everything in terms of The to the benefit of our kids right to say I you know, my impression is that

[00:27:21] Jeremy really appreciate really enjoys Bowling and would like to do more of it and more consistently. I'm looking at this class but Attendance is twice a week once on Tuesdays when he's with you and once on Thursdays when he's with me. I

[00:27:39] Think it would really be great for him to do it because of Friendships and core physical coordination and blah blah blah. How would you feel about sending him up for this? It's something like that Instead of hey, I want to send this bowling pay for it

[00:27:56] I signed him up for bowling. It's also happening on Tuesdays Please don't ruin it Oh my gosh a couple of really specific tactical suggestions one Chat GPT is your friend. Oh God. Yes, so

[00:28:16] Make a little text file on your computer and type in it I am writing an email to my ex Regarding our joint child. I want to make sure that the email is brief Informative friendly and firm here is the draft What suggestions do you have?

[00:28:37] It is an amazing tool then just you know type your draft and then hit enter and you don't have to accept everything the overlords tell you but Often a lot of good pointers

[00:28:50] So I think it's a good discipline to use some kind of review whether it's chat GPT or running it through a friend or whatever So that's one. The other thing is never ever ever reply Quickly if you're feeling any kind of negative emotion. Oh, yeah

[00:29:09] So if you're getting an email from your ex and your ex says Why do you keep sending him to school with those stupid Star Trek shirts? I Wish you didn't it's embarrassing all his friends are making fun of him Never hit reply like just immediately walk away

[00:29:30] Then when you write your response write it on a separate text file so you cannot press send Got big fingers oops Yeah, I've done that before yeah, certainly never on your phone. Honestly. Yeah. Oh, yeah I learned that the hard way and

[00:29:46] And then let someone review it before you send it if you're feeling any kind of negative emotion That's that's a real discipline to the yeah, but I'll oh my gosh quickly lower the temperature of the

[00:29:57] Conversations I mean in a good way lower the temperature lower the level of conflict I'm gonna piggyback on your chat GBT never ever ever use the Ryan Reynolds tone Never ever use the Ryan Reynolds tone that it gets you in trouble every time

[00:30:20] Oh, yeah smart ass one person can pull it off Ryan Reynolds. Oh, yeah, you're right Wow, man Iran we want to thank you for My guys with me today. I cannot get that damn Jack of the box out on my head, but thanks a lot

[00:30:38] Let them know the people were to find you on the internet and I'll have the contact information at the bottom of the show notes But go ahead let them know where you are. Yeah for for a general parenting work

[00:30:47] It's parenting for humans calm and then for divorcing dad specifically. It's divorcing dads All right Well, this has been informative man, this has been interesting Also, I should add sorry. I totally forgot all right I don't remember if I told you this before we came on

[00:31:06] I think I did I'm starting a podcast to where I'm interviewing divorcing dads as they're going through the divorce Oh, you from the front lines Wow That'd be interesting people just have a sense of what this works just cuz I

[00:31:19] Realize it would have been so nice to me as I was just like in the first couple of weeks and trying to figure out What's happening? Oh, yeah, would have been really nice for me to hear somebody's journey over the first year

[00:31:29] And this is exactly what what happens there like I'm talking with dads as their divorce. They're doing it I want to do something a little different, you know I want to do this and then I want to

[00:31:40] Expand like a year out two years out three years out because it's a different journey as you go down the road Yeah, but we appreciate you very much for taking time out just hold on the line here for a second

[00:31:54] We'll go ahead close out and everybody have a good night. All right. Bye. Bye. Thank you