5 Skills Every Divorced Dad Needs for Relationships and Co-Parenting 🧠👨‍👦 || DPTSP#146 || Olivier Bessaignet

[00:00:01] Welcome back to another episode of Don't Pick The Scab Podcast, where we power men over 40 to rebuild their lives after a divorce. I am honored to be joined by Olivier Bessaignet, a relationship coach specializing in healthy masculinity and marriage skills for leaders. Olivier's expertise comes not just from his professional training, but from a deeply personal experience as a divorced father with full custody of his son.

[00:00:27] His journey began in the wake of a personal crisis when, despite 20 years of immersive personal development, tantra, non-valid communication, men's groups, and internal family systems, he realized that being a better person didn't necessarily make him a better partner.

[00:00:45] This realization led him to create a groundbreaking system rooted in five trainable, measurable intimacy skills, which he outlines in his book, Back to Love and Respect, Five Intimacy Skills to Solve Relationship Crisis Without Therapy. Today, we'll explore Olivier's transformative insights on relationships, co-parenting, and thriving after divorce. Let's dive in.

[00:01:15] Tell us a little bit about yourself, Olivier, and we'll go from there. Oh, wow. Thank you for this intro. Yes, my name is Olivier Bessaignet. It's a mouthful, but I'm French. It's a French name. Yes, I'm a relationship coach. I didn't really want to be a coach, but after a lot of experiences and doing a lot of work on myself and all that, I came up with this map of skills. And I figured, wow, I've never seen this before.

[00:01:40] And so after mastering it for myself, I was like, I'm going to get some guinea pigs and try it on people and start it to work. So it's like, okay, this looks solid. Yeah. So I do marriage skills for leaders. And so when I say leaders, I'm not referring to a title or status. People may have like their manager or leader or a business owner, but it's more about taking responsibility for yourself.

[00:02:06] Some people tend to blame the world, blame their ex, blame XYZ. And I don't know how to help those people. But those who have more of the mindset of a lot of things is happening that is difficult for me outside. But how can I take responsibility for my part? Because that's the part I can have influence over and see how that influences my reality from the inside out. And why skills?

[00:02:33] About 10 years ago, I went to couples therapy because I was having a rough time with my partner. And it was an intense experience. And it was not my first round in the sense that I had done a lot of tantra, non-violent communication at the time. But in that room, I don't know how to say it better than I felt like the idiot in the room. That is my partner.

[00:02:59] The woman was very articulate about her feelings, about what she was angry about and all that. And the therapist was like nodding all along. And when I would open my mouth, I received the feedback of you're angry or you're passive-aggressive or you're shut down or you're avoidant and all that. And that shocked me a little bit. I went on like that wrist shape didn't work out and then exploded.

[00:03:27] And so I went to solo therapy for two and a half years and men's group and all that. And what I discovered, that's what you mentioned in the intro, is that I tried to become a better person. That's the premise of therapy. That's the premise of this kind of clinical work. And I realized for myself that being a better person helps but did not solve the relationship dynamics.

[00:03:53] And I realized that what does help is skills. Are skills that my father didn't really teach me. He was a great father. But there are some specific things about boundaries, about ownership, about... I can give you the whole wheel that I have about it. That are the skills that are necessary for a relationship to work. And I had to learn those skills for myself. So now that's why I teach.

[00:04:22] So let me do a side note here because you were talking about your journey with therapy with your ex-partner. So we were having problems probably 20 years ago. So one of my wife's friends referred us to a therapist, a couple of therapists. We went and I did about four or five sessions. And every session, man, this woman just got in me. I was doing it wrong, this and the other. So I finally saw the couple that referred us to them. And I pulled the husband aside.

[00:04:51] I said, hey, what's up with this therapist? He goes, David, man, she's a man hater. I mean, I want to make sure I'm not hammering on therapists because I'm not against it. I did a lot myself. But sometimes I myself and I hear experiences where the therapist tends to take side and become the referee.

[00:05:11] And what I discovered, too, is that all those modalities that are therapy oriented, like we're going to unpack your childhood wounds and we're going to be vulnerable and talk about our feelings. And I love it. I love diving in and being vulnerable and unpack all like it's easy for me to be transparent and to be very vulnerable. But I realized that this is a feminine principle.

[00:05:38] Being vulnerable, having emotional intimacy is the language of love. And that's a feminine principle. And that's great. I love it. But the reason why usually men are uncomfortable in that situation, it's because it's mostly the woman's territory. And the masculine principle, which I call in my modality the circle of safety, which is based on ownership, boundaries and integrity.

[00:06:04] So in the center, I have emotional intimacy, which is the language of love. So being vulnerable, empathy, how do you feel and all that is emotional intimacy. That's the language of love. Absolutely essential because there's no relationship without it. If I'm not in love with somebody, then there's no relationship. But around it, I have the circle of safety, which is the masculine principle. It builds and maintains respect and it protects love.

[00:06:34] Right. So we have to have both. And what I found is usually in those kind of settings, we mostly talk about emotional intimacy. That's the territory. And we don't rebuild that circle of safety, which is so important. And that's the masculine principle. So it's the role for the man to really master and bring up to the table. Yeah. I wasn't dog and therapist either. There's good people and bad people. So there you go.

[00:07:00] But can you share more about your personal journey and the moment you realized being a better person? Was it the same as being a skilled partner? Yeah. So I started diving into personal development in 2001 because I found Tantra. Originally, I felt like a bit of an oddball or not really integrated in society. And so when I found Tantra, it was really a validation about deeper beliefs that I had.

[00:07:29] And and I did. So I did a bunch of workshops and then I ended up in the relationship with one of the lead teachers for 12 years. And so I really mentored with her at the time. I was not trying to be a teacher myself, but I would model. I would go. I would help her with all her workshops. And so I would be the demo. I would show how to do it and all that. And so I got the embodiment of it for 12 years. And then I came to the US in 2013.

[00:07:59] And I found this community that were living and breathing nonviolent communication, conscious communication. So I was living with them for two and a half years. And so not only I was like helping and attending all the workshops, but outside of the workshops, that's how we would talk and interact with each other in the community. And we would have a little group who was studying Marshall Rosenberg's lessons and all that. So that was very immersive.

[00:08:25] And so then I found this woman and I ended up in that therapy session that I was explaining about 10 years ago. And that was my first introduction to more of a clinical work, couples therapy. And so after the breakup, I went to internal family systems and advanced integrative therapy and did that for two and a half years. Integrative AIT, I had weekly sessions with the founder.

[00:08:55] So I was directly taught by the founder of the modality. And after all that, I found myself in another relationship. And guess what? Same thing happened again. So it started breaking down. We went to a different therapist. And after all that work, I was like, I'm so much better. I've healed my childhood wounds. I'm such a better person. The same thing happened.

[00:09:20] And that's when I realized, wait, it's not about becoming a better person, which is essential, of course. Healing childhood wounds and trauma is absolutely essential. But after that second experience with the second therapist, I went back and I went through everything I learned. And I broke it down as a skill training more than just being a better person. When I say skill training, it's very tactical. It's ABCD.

[00:09:50] It's like when she says, you didn't X, you didn't take out the trash, you didn't pick me on time, you did not fix the facet leak or whatever. You didn't X mean it's an integrity issue. And so integrity, okay. So integrity, step one, two, three. How do you do integrity? So I have a process for that. How do you boundaries? I have a process for that. How do you like all that ownership? I have a process for that.

[00:10:19] So I turn it into more of a tactical skill training than just being a better person. Being a better person is great, but it's general principles. Whereas skill training is tactical. Tactical. How did your experience as a divorced father shape your approach to helping other men navigate relationships and co-parenting? Yeah. Wow. Deep question.

[00:10:41] As I was building this modality, I realized that I was in a codependent relationship. My partner was trying to put me into a codependent relationship. And I was like, okay, I have to enforce my boundaries. I have to be more direct about what's not working for me. And I realized that we had really grown to have very different values.

[00:11:10] So right now she left, she's in Atlanta or wherever. She's doing her thing because after not paying rent, you get kicked out. And if you don't pay the insurance for the car or don't repair it, but then you don't have a car. So it's not that I want to have full custody.

[00:11:33] It's that she's focusing on other things, on herself, on doing a couch tour with her influencer friends. And she wants to discover who she is and all that. Wow. Yeah. And so that makes me sad for my kid is five year old, five and a half. And every day I miss mama. I'm like, I get it. And so we do FaceTime every time and every once in a while. And she's, I miss you so much. I miss you so much. And I can't say anything to the kid right now.

[00:12:03] But when you say I miss you, but not showing up, there's a disconnect there. There's a bit of a problem, right? Right. So that's part of the way I see boundaries. It's that I'm not, boundaries is not about forcing somebody to do X, Y, or Z. But if things, if some things are not working for me, I have to say this is not okay. Yeah.

[00:12:29] And in my situation, she wanted to have the least responsibility possible and have the most fun possible. And I was like, this is draining me down. I have 10 years in front of me, then I'll be out of energy. I can't do this. And so the hard line to walk is between, okay, how do I do the best? Like, how do I do the best I can with this relationship?

[00:12:57] And at the same time, what works and what doesn't work for me? And if this person can't hear me, doesn't want to change or want to do their own thing, what do I need to do to make sure I can show up for my kids? And being exhausted, drain and running myself to the ground is not going to do it. It's not going to do it. When you say, how does that help other men?

[00:13:21] It's a case by case basis because my story is kind of unique or probably different than anybody else. So I see with each man, because a relationship is as long as we have basic values that we can build upon, then let's try to work it out. But it's not at all costs. At some point, if some of the basic values do not align, then what do I need to do?

[00:13:52] What do I need to do? And sometimes that means, well, separation is the right thing to do. At least that was my choice. I'm a big boundary guy. So I'm with you there. Boundaries is what got me through my co-parenting. So ironic what you just said. So one of my things I would say to my ex, if I was getting heated during a co-parenting conversation, I would end with, thanks for asking, but that's not going to work for me today. So you reminded me of that.

[00:14:21] And so that sets a tone and a boundary at the same time. And then I get off the phone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's no arguing. In my case, there's a lot of, she's the queen of excuses or why this is supposed to be that way. Like, I'm not going to argue with anything. So I love when you said that this is not going to work for me because a lot of time people think that boundaries are rules. This should be like this way or that way.

[00:14:47] And for me, boundaries are not rules in the sense that I have self-agency, which means everybody has self-agency. You're free. Usually I start a boundary with saying you're free to do X, Y, Z. You're free to choose whatever you want to choose for yourself because I don't want to be taught or told what I should do and not do. So I'm not going to tell you what you should do and not do, but this is what works for me and what doesn't work for me.

[00:15:15] So if you want to be in a relationship where we can like find a compromise or find something that works for the both of us, that's awesome. But if you're just going to do your thing, that's not going to work with me, then I'm going to have to do what I need to do. And so I love the phone because there's no arguing. Don't try to talk me out of it. Oliver, it was like, oh my God. Master.

[00:15:40] Can you give us an overview or example of each five intimacy skills and how they apply to both relationships and co-parenting? Yeah, totally. So the first skill is polarity. Polarity is the difference between the feminine energy and the masculine energy. And when I say energy, I'm not talking about gender. I'm talking about energy, which means like each person embodies masculine and feminine energy.

[00:16:06] And usually men embody more of the masculine energy and the women embody more of the feminine energy. But you get very masculine women, for example. And especially since 80 years, since contraception, a lot of women have learned skills how to be really masculine and be self-sufficient and independent. And they can embody a lot of the masculine energy. That's great.

[00:16:32] If she wants to be the CEO, the boss, the whatever in the world, that's awesome. But when she gets home and if she keeps that masculine energy and I want to be in my masculine energy, then it's going to be abrasive. It's going to be friction. So how can we navigate? And I'm not saying to be dominant, to be forceful or to be a jerk or to be like, gorilla, I'm the man. So I'm the man. Therefore, I'm the man. No, it's OK.

[00:17:02] How can we navigate that? Because polarity is what creates attraction. If we're too much of the same, sameness destroys attraction. So how can we choose which archetype we want or energy we want to embody? And so at some point, if she's trying to manage me or try to tell me what to do, I'm like, honey, stop right there. Relax. I got it. Go take a bath. Take care of yourself.

[00:17:32] Meaning get back in your feminine energy. I got this. Here's what we're going to do. And usually what I like to do is ask for three options. Do you prefer this, that or this? A, B or C? And then I will choose and I will lead based on the input instead of saying, this is what we're going to do. And you just boulders over me. Do I even matter to you? First, I'm going to ask, would you like this or that?

[00:18:00] So I have inputs and now I can lead. So that would be the gist of polarity. Next. The second one is the circle of safety. I already talked about it. And so the circle of safety is what build and maintain respect. And the three pillars are ownership, boundaries, and integrity.

[00:18:22] So integrity, for example, we usually see integrity as morality or character traits in the sense that do you hurt people? Do you lie? Do you cheat? Do you take advantage of people?

[00:18:36] Do you have a little bit of a deal? And that's important to address.

[00:19:05] Then it cheats. But all that tends to stack up. And then she gets angry or resentful or she's going to be nagging. She's going to be on my case. And so usually men tend to be like defensive, such as I'm doing the best I can. Sorry, I was busy for the faucet leak or whatever. So they get defensive or they attack back or they're like, ah, it's no big deal. Why are you nagging me about that?

[00:19:35] Which is dismissive. And she gets infuriated. So integrity is really understanding what our agreements are about, even the small ones. Like today, we're supposed to have the appointment was supposed to be at 9. You said my slot is 9 a.m. And I made sure repeatedly that I would say I need to drop off my kid at 9. Therefore, I'm going to show up at 9.10 or 9.15. And I said two or three times to make sure that we're in agreement. Now we have an agreement.

[00:20:05] If I fall outside of that agreement, it's no big deal. I could have said nothing and just showed up 10 minutes later. But then how do we start the conversation? Not on a very solid ground. Is this guy really solid, reliable? Is this guy reliable? Right? What kind of joke is this? So I have to set a clear agreement so I can show up for that agreement. And if I can't, but it doesn't work for me, I go, I'm sorry, I cannot do this. And so I don't make an agreement.

[00:20:34] So integrity is extremely important for that. And usually when we say something and we do something else, it's because we choose something consciously, but our subconscious makes us do something else. Such as if I say, I pick you up at 5 and at 4.30, I'm sorry. I need to stay because my boss is asking me to stay. I need to stay at work a little longer.

[00:21:02] Consciously, I say, I choose you. I won't show up for you. I'm a reliable person. But my subconscious says, if I say no to my boss, I'm going to get fired. So we all understand that choosing your boss and choosing to keep your job is important, but it comes from like this. When we do something else, when we're late, when we do something else than what we said

[00:21:27] we would, usually it's because there's a disconnect between the intention and the subconscious that makes us do something else. I call it a shadow. And so I have a process to uncovering shadows. So basically when we do something else, that means that we believe something, something is driving us to do something else than the intention that we set. So how do I discover my shadow? I need to look at my actions.

[00:21:53] My actions are the trail that tell me what I really choose. So for example, like my ex and she says, I miss you so much. I want to see you, my kid, but she keeps choosing being hanging out with her friends or doing like not being here. She's saying something, but her subconscious is pulling her to do something else. So we need to understand what a gap is so we can close it.

[00:22:21] So are the three parts of the circle, it's each one of those, one of the five or is the circle one? No, I take the circle of safety as one. Okay. All right. Okay. So number three. Number three is emotional intimacy. Okay. And emotional intimacy is really essential. So emotional intimacy is if the partner is, or the kid is upset, has a meltdown, has some emotion.

[00:22:50] How do I connect with that person? How do you feel? Why do you feel this way? What are your values? How can I have empathy for what you're going through? So that's the base of non-valuant communication is that all our feelings, emotions are based on our needs and values. Usually when somebody is upset about something, it's because they have an underlying need or value.

[00:23:18] So if my partner is angry at me, I can say, I don't like your anger, but it's probably because she has an underlying need or value that is not met. If I can understand what it is. If I can understand what it is by asking. Okay. I hear you're angry. What are you really angry about? What are you really upset about? So I can dig a layer deeper, understand her values and needs. And that I can definitely relate to it.

[00:23:45] Even if I don't agree, even if my experience is different, I can always validate someone's feelings and values because they are valid. I might not like the expression. I might disagree with the situation or what they're saying about me. If they're angry with me, for example, but I can understand and validate.

[00:24:09] So for example, if the partner is saying, I can't rely on you for anything because that faucet has been leaking for three weeks. I can say, I can say it's no big deal or stop nagging me all the defensive or you're talking about a faucet. What about the dishwasher? You never load up the dishwasher, right? So that would be attacking back. In that case, I would say, you're right. I said I would and I didn't.

[00:24:38] Okay, so that's owning that there's a disconnect between what I said and what I did or in this case, not do. I understand why you feel upset because I made an agreement with you and that agreement not being followed through, being broken. You feel angry, aggravated, annoyed with me. I understand why. So I'm with you on that. Okay. I'm not making an apology. I'm not saying I'm bad.

[00:25:08] I'm terrible. I'm a terrible person. I'm saying I hear your emotions and understand where they're coming from. Okay. Now I can maybe correct and say, you're right. I said I would do this, shop on time or whatever, and I didn't. It's true. I have a tendency to, and I can talk about my shadow and say I have a tendency to overcommit or put too much on my plate.

[00:25:36] And I can correct this because it's not me who I'm bad. It's a part of me, my subconscious, my shadow. We all have subconscious beliefs that pull us to act the way we don't want to act. But instead of saying I'm bad, then I can say I have this tendency, this shadow that tends to make me act this way or that way. You're right.

[00:26:02] We can look at it together instead of fighting about it against each other. So emotional intimacy is how can I create more bond? Four is playful banter. And that is for flirting. Because I see a lot of men in my practice and all that who tend to fall into complacency. And the women are like, I feel alone in relationship.

[00:26:29] Now that I'm a mother and I need to take care of my baby and take care of the house, I miss being flirted with. I miss being the center of the attention. I miss being special, feeling special. And so to find a partner, usually we tend to be playful, to flirt, to tease a little bit and all that. And that tends to dissolve along the years.

[00:26:58] And the women miss it. And so no wonder when somebody does that with them, then they tend to like it. So you might as well do it yourself. So that would be the fourth one. So I got remarried three years ago. And every time we're in the kitchen, I grab her ass. Every time. If I cross through the kitchen, I grab her ass. And she's stop it.

[00:27:24] But I know the minute I stop, she's going to complain. Every time. So it can be a practical joke or it could be a tease on her dress or on a quirky thing that only you know about. Ah, you're doing this again? It's like, what? And like the back and forth, like the little comical or judgment that is not mean, that is not real judgment.

[00:27:53] All those little back and forths can really go a long way and maintain this flirting energy way longer after the honeymoon phase. And that is very essential. Grab that ass. She wants to be desired. She wants to feel wanted. She wants to. There's two. So like I'll brush. I'll grab. So I don't know how I feel when I pass it. And it's okay that if she feels a little bit.

[00:28:23] And ah, stop this or annoyed. The tease works really well. Number five. Number five is tantric lovemaking. That's a very big topic. And my first 12 years of tantra, I really give me a lot about that. I realized each modal leader I went through tantra and then non-valued communication and then men's group and then therapy and all that. That gave me a piece of the puzzle. It's only when I connected them together that I felt like I had a complete map.

[00:28:50] So tantra was awesome, but it never addressed boundaries, for example, or it never addressed all the other things that I've been talking about. So tantra is basically a tantric lovemaking. And I'm not asking people to become like a tantra, woo-woo, diving and all that. But basically tantra is based on presence. And so it's the opposite of porn, of kink, BDSM and all that, which is great on its own.

[00:29:20] But tantra is really finding the connection and diving into presence with the partner. There's a deep practice about awakening the woman and the G-spot massage and all that with connection. Yeah, to foster physical connection. So that's what tantra is about. All right, I got another story for you. Yeah.

[00:29:46] So when my last kid was a senior in high school, he was having a hard time in school. So I said, okay, we're going to go to the public library every night for about six weeks. And so he was in there studying and doing his thing. So I read four or five tantra books because I was bored. So I went through these books quite a bit. It was very interesting. So I tell my man out there, go to the library, man, and check out a couple of books.

[00:30:14] But I was sitting there bored because he was sitting there studying for a couple. So we would do it four times a week, just a couple hours. But I was able to read these books and read these books. So yeah, tantra was very interesting. It's very deep. It goes really deep. Yeah, very deep. All right, sir. Where can my man find you on the internet? Yeah. The entry point for me to dive into deeper is backtoloveandrespect.com. Just go to backtoloveandrespect.com.

[00:30:42] I have a three-minute assessment there. And so you just answer a dozen questions really quickly in about three minutes. And the AI will analyze what you said and rate you against all five skills and show you, wow, you're pretty good at being flirty and bent or all that, but emotional intimacy can get you in trouble if you get defensive instead of understanding your partner. So you get a breakdown.

[00:31:09] You get a score and a breakdown on an assessment to where you're at. And then you get also an audio player to listen to my book because I personally don't have much time to sit down and read. So I tend to learn through listening while commuting. So that's why I offer so. You can also check my public channels on YouTube. You go to olivier.intimacy.

[00:31:30] So Olivier is like Oliver with an extra I, O-L-I, so O-L-I-V-I-E-R.intimacy on YouTube, Instagram, and then. And I have videos diving into those skills, but also have little skits. They are 45 seconds. And it's a comic book situation. So the man is my version of what AI think as a cartoon character.

[00:32:00] And there's an interaction with a woman. So the man gets in trouble. And then I give one little bit, one clue, and then there's a redo. So it's all these skills. How does it look like in action? Before and after. And so it's fun. All right. And any last words? You want to tell my men out there? So men's work is really important.

[00:32:27] And this, like understanding, like I understand very well the female perspective and the man's perspective. And talking about it, the way you bring the community of men together is so important. So I know they already know it because if they're listening to your show, they must bought into that idea already. Yeah. And respect is a very tricky thing because we tend to go, I need to be respected because I'm a man. That's the old patriarchy of the woman. It doesn't work with a woman anymore.

[00:32:55] So you know how to build this yourself so that you get the respect that you want. Men want respect. It's essential for us. We want to be praised for everything that we provide, that we bring to the table. And when we don't get that, we get criticized and all that. Instead, that can hurt very much. So for me, it's an essential skill to build. And it's not that you wait for the other one to respect you.

[00:33:24] It's something that you can bring to the table and then demand it. Yeah. One last question. How do you help my men out there? We talked about this earlier in the pre-interview, helping my men out there that are in a crazy shitty co-parenting situation. How can they use their own skills in order to get through that, even though they don't have the support of the ex? Oh, even though they, like by themselves or co-parenting, I'm not so sure.

[00:33:54] You're co-parenting, but you're co-parenting by yourself because there's no communication. Oh, wow. That's tough. Yeah. Um, I don't have any specific trick for that because again, it's not simple. It's not easy. So having all those skills is what build the resilience to communicate better. And the most important thing for me is that I give that gift to my kids so that they build their own resilience.

[00:34:23] So depending on the level of communication that I have with the other partner, whether it's difficult and then it's going to be some emotional intimacy, but mostly circle of safety boundaries and all that, that I can pass on to my kid. So he has that resilience. If I have no communication at all, then I'll do the best I can directly. We're like, I need to embody this to be the role model for my kid. So that my kid has that anchor.

[00:34:51] So they can't concentrate what's going on over there. They have to concentrate on their relationship with the kid. Yes. Yes. Yes. You do the best you can with the other partner, but you have to concentrate. You can't make somebody do anything that they don't want to. That's why for me, boundaries, you're free to be you. Like I can't do anything about you being you, but when you do this to the kid or when you don't show up or all that doesn't work, that doesn't work, that doesn't work. And demonstrating that and then showing up doing it for your kid.

[00:35:21] All right, Olivier. That was awesome, man. You did a great job. Thank you. But that's helpful. I appreciate you men out there grabbed your girlfriends or new wife's butt and go from there, but stay playful and annoy her in a good way. Not mean, but hold on to the phone. Don't go anywhere, sir. All right.