Using Chemical/Mental Addition Recovery in Your Divorce Recovery? Amber Hollingsworth Addition Specialist || DPTSP #151

[00:00:00] Welcome to the show. Today I'm excited to have Amber Hollingsworth join us. Amber is a renowned addiction recovery specialist and content creator with over 20 years of experience helping individuals and families navigate the challenges of addiction. She is the founder of the wildly popular YouTube channel, Put the Shovel Down. I want to see what that means. Her work is centered on empowering people to understand that addiction isn't a hopeless condition.

[00:00:26] They can break free from deeply ingrained patterns and false beliefs. Also, Amber is also a dynamic speaker whose insights have transformed countless lives, offering practical strategies to rebuild trust and create lasting change in relationships impacted by addiction. Whether it's reframing relapse or addressing the myths of recovery, Amber's compassionate and practical approach has made her a trusted voice in addiction recovery.

[00:00:53] Let's dive into her incredible expertise and insights for rebuilding life after divorce and beyond. Man, I pumped you up, Amber. Man, I feel big time now. I'm feeling good. Tell a little bit about yourself. Yeah, sure. I have been helping people overcome addiction for more than 20 years now and for pretty much almost all of those years until just recently.

[00:01:19] People that have come to see me have not wanted to. They've been leveraged into it, talked into it, legally forced to do it. So I have a lot of experience of helping people who don't want help and getting through to people who either don't think they have a problem or don't think they need help with their problem or don't want to stop. And so I think that's where my expertise is. It's really in how do you engage someone?

[00:01:48] How do you get through to someone who doesn't want to be gotten through to you? Because a lot of people tell you there's nothing you can do about that. But I disagree. I've been doing it for 20 years. I've got some secret tips and tricks. And so a lot of my content is just sharing all those secret tips and tricks I've learned over the years. There's actually a lot you can do. Wow. What are some of the misconceptions about addiction and recovery that people have?

[00:02:13] I think one of them is that people think when you're addicted, you have a broken brain, almost like there's just something wrong with your operating system. But really, our brains, our behavior is designed to do two things. One is seek pleasure and one is avoid pain. And that is exactly what addiction is. It's just confused about where the pleasure and pain is coming from. Right. It thinks that this behavior, substance, gambling, whatever the thing is bringing them pleasure.

[00:02:42] But at some point, it really stops bringing them pleasure and causes them more and more pain. But the brain is stuck in this mode that feels like this is helping. Eventually, it goes on long enough that you got to do it and that kind of thing. It's really not a broken brain. It's a confused brain. How does addiction recovery intersect with emotional recovery after a divorce? What intersections do they have? There's a couple of ways to look at it.

[00:03:07] One is there's a parallel between recovering from a divorce because when even when you were talking earlier, David, I was thinking, man, that's quite a recovery story. I would call that a recovery story when you were talking to me about you. But also. Divorce happens because of addiction one side or the other. Right. Either you're with someone who struggled with addiction or maybe you struggle with addiction and that can really complicate things.

[00:03:31] And we can talk about why addiction impacts marriages the way it does and why ends in divorce so often. Right. If you want to go down that road if you want to. But let's do it. Let's do it. OK. When when you're married to someone or dating someone or partner with someone who has an addiction, you love this person. Right. And you care about them. You're watching them make these terrible mistakes that are not only ruining their life, but ruining yours, too, to be honest.

[00:03:59] And so your natural instinct when you're dealing with someone like that situation is you kind of want to just shake them by the shoulders and say, wake up. What are you doing? Why are you doing this? It's not worth it. But the more you do that, the worse it gets, because what happens in the mind of someone who has an addiction is. In order to keep an addiction going, doesn't matter what the addiction is, it runs on self-pity and resentment. That's the emotional fuel. People worry about giving addicts money. Don't worry about that.

[00:04:28] Worry about doing what I call playing the villain. Because when someone has an addiction, at first it starts out, you're just trying to help them. Right. You're trying to get them. There's a problem. You're trying to get through to them. But the way they perceive that as criticism, control, judgment, nagging, that's the way they perceive it. And so in their mind, you become the villain, which only just validates this confusion that their brain has even more.

[00:04:56] Or the pleasure is coming from this addiction. And they see you as the painful situation. And I know this from all these years of working with addicts and alcoholics. When they're a family member, and there's always at least one, usually more than one family member. And it's always the spouse or the parent, if they're not married, that's trying to get through to them. They see their problem as the other person. It's all they can talk about. It's the only thing they're worried about.

[00:05:23] And they'll never get to worrying about that addiction until the bad guy, the villain, that's not really the villain, but they perceive as the villain, gets out of that villain role. It serves as this distraction for them. It allows them to focus on how you're not treating them right and how you're not doing them right and how you're so mean to them. And that is this big distraction for me in order to see what the problem is. And it creates this power struggle that goes on.

[00:05:52] And you wouldn't believe how many years people with addiction literally keep the addiction going, not even because they want to anymore, but because they're locked into this power struggle. You're not the boss of me. You can't control me. I'm a grown-ass man. I'm a grown-ass woman. Whatever it is, I do what I want. I work hard, especially I deal a lot these days with what I call functional addicts and alcoholics. And the ones that I see are real successful. I see a lot of physicians, a lot of business owners, a lot of lawyers, a lot of freaking iron men.

[00:06:21] They're smart. They're successful. And if you're trying to tell this person, you're an addict, you're an alcoholic, you're lifestyle control, they're going to look at you like crazy. I make $500,000 a year. They're not going to hear that. You're going to have to have a different method. And so it creates this really bad dynamic, which so often ends in heartbreak and divorce and generational trauma. It's just a mess. So you stated that addiction isn't a hopeless condition.

[00:06:52] Can you elaborate on that perspective? Yes. I hate the way when you talk to people, whether it's the family or the person with addiction, people are like, oh, one in 10 people beat this thing. And you got to hit bottom. And you got to want it for yourself. And basically, it's like this person has to suffer enough. And if they suffer enough, maybe they'll hit this big bottom and they'll have this big revelation and they'll decide they want sobriety.

[00:07:21] That's a myth. Okay. People that have addiction hit a lot of bottom. And when they experience those discomforts, there are at least little moments of clarity where they do this promising, oh, I'm never going to do that again. Right? You've heard that. We've said that. But it doesn't work that way because that only sticks around somewhere between two hours and two days max. Right? Because they get stuck back in that cycle. When people get sober, it's not because they want to get sober. Someone wants to get sober. It's ridiculous.

[00:07:51] They do it initially because they're usually in a rock and a hard place. I don't want to lose my marriage or I don't want to go to jail or I don't want to lose my kids or I'm bankrupting myself, something like that, or I've killed my liver, whatever it is. They do it for some external reason, which is okay. There's no bad reason to do it. I think the reason why people feel like addicts and alcoholics don't get better is because it takes them a bunch of trials.

[00:08:16] So at first when people start deciding to get better, they do what I call bargaining, which can last year. Especially if you're power struggling, which is I'm going to cut back. I'm just going to drink on the weekends. I'm just going to drink beer and not liquor. I'm just going to do $500 worth of cocaine and not $1,000 worth of cocaine. They try. And so they say, or they'll do these. I'm going to quit for a month. I'm going to do dry January or whatever. And then they go back and then they try to cut it back and it goes back.

[00:08:44] The people around them think they didn't mean it. They don't care. They always say that when they don't understand that this is a learning process. And everybody that gets sober goes through this. And if you can lean into it instead of fighting with it, it'll go faster and figure it out faster and we'll get on the other side of it. But they're not going to. It's exactly like coming to terms with the end of a relationship. You're going to try a lot of things before you go get a divorce. The divorce is not the first thing you try.

[00:09:14] They're not going to divorce their addiction the first thing. They're going to try a lot of things to try to keep this around and save it and keep it in their life somehow. Maybe it's I'll give up this substance, but I'm going to keep doing this thing. Whatever. There's all these ways of bargaining. And what happens to people around you start to fight with you about it. You got a treatment. They fight with you about it. You go to AA. They fight with you about it. Your family fights with you about it. If people would realize that this is actually a good sign. This is a sign that someone realizes that there's some level of problem. If they want to fix it.

[00:09:44] Now you have something to grab onto. You can actually help. You can't skip bargaining, but you can expedite. And the way you expedite it is you lean in. Like when someone says to me, I'm just going to drink on the weekend. Or I'm just going to drink beer and not liquor. Whatever. These common things. I think that sounds great. I think that actually would help a lot. Because you wouldn't feel hungover during the week. Let's do it. Right? Put that on your treatment plan. Whatever. And I'll say, but don't worry if it don't work. We got plan B, plan C, plan E, whatever.

[00:10:14] We got you. Let's do it. Because what happens is then they try to do it. And because I've aligned with them about it. And I've said it's okay if it works or doesn't work. They're going to come back and be honest with me. And we can process that. We can figure out, okay, that one didn't work. Let's get to the next one. I see it as a checklist. Let's move it on. Let's get through that. All right. Let's, we tried that. Let's try this. All right. Let's try this thing. Until eventually people come to the conclusion either they can't manage it as in do less or whatever.

[00:10:42] Or maybe they can manage it sometimes, which is usually the case. They can manage it sometimes. But it's a lot of freaking work and it's not even worth it. Because in the end, people say, I just want to socially drink. I just want to be able to have a glass of wine with my steak dinner or whatever. I'm like, I'll let them dry. I'm like, but I'm like, dude, how hard was that? And they're like, man, I did it. But man, I wanted one. And I thought about it all the next day. And three days later, right? I wanted more and more. And I'm like, is it really worth it? What does one glass of wine do for you? Nothing. People that see me, that's not going to do nothing.

[00:11:11] Nothing but make you want some more. And so they either figure out they can't do that. It doesn't work. Or it's not worth the effort. Man. And so when you join someone and let them come to terms with it, people can and do get on the other side. But even people that most, what I call big talk, they're like, I love it. I'm never going to quit doing it. I'm going to die of something. You hear all this big talk. There's a piece of them inside that doesn't want it. So I teach people how to find that piece.

[00:11:42] And their piece is usually their reason is different than your reason. You may think their reason is stupid, but it doesn't matter because that's the one that's going to get them to change. When you can find that internal motivation and pull it forward, instead of trying to cram it in, you get somewhere a lot faster. I see people be saying all the time. My goal is to get them to do it before they lose everything, before they hit. So instead of beating them down, you're walking side by side and then reorganize and try something else. That's very interesting.

[00:12:11] So go ahead. I was going to say it's really hard because it feels like you're enabling. But what I'd say to you, if you've ever been in that situation, you've tried everything else. And you know that not only has not worked, but made things worse. What families want to do is the opposite of what I want to do. They want to fix all the problems that addiction is causing. They want to hire the lawyer. They want to keep paying for school so you don't flunk out.

[00:12:39] They want to cover for you and tell the kids whatever. They want to fix all the messes, all the external problems. But inside the relationship, they're pissed at you because of what you're doing. And so they're critical. They're controlling. They're watching you like a hawk. They're treating you like a child. And what that does is it creates a false impression that my life is fine. Right? I've still got my job. This is fine. I'm still going to school, whatever. You're my problem. And what I want families to do is reverse that.

[00:13:06] I want you to let all the problems, let the cards fall whenever possible. It's not always possible, but whenever possible. And it's not going to hurt you to do that. But let those cards fall in place so they can feel that this isn't working anymore. And then be empathetic about it when it happens. So don't fix it and be nice versus fix it and be mean. Because that's why everybody else wants to fix it and then be pissed about. They remind you of what that lawyer calls. They're going to tell you how they told you a hundred times not to do that.

[00:13:36] Every day, they're going to remind you. That is the worst formula. That keeps people stuck. Keeps people fixated on you're the problem. And not, oh, the thing isn't working for me anymore, right? Yeah, that's the way you get it done. Well, so how can men over 40 recognize if they have or if they are engaging in a addictive behavior post-divorce? And what is an addictive behavior? What's the definition of an addictive behavior?

[00:14:03] The most basic definition is I keep doing something despite the consequences. On the face of it, it doesn't make sense. The price is too high, right? The consequences outweigh the benefits and I keep doing it anyway. A good way that you'll know you're stuck in that pattern is because you keep doing it. Bad crap happens. You promise yourself you're not going to let that happen anymore and it happens again. Over and over. It doesn't mean you're doing it every day. It doesn't mean you can't stop. A better indicator is I have trouble stopping once I start.

[00:14:34] Wow. And so how can they recognize that they're engaging in addictive behavior post-divorce then? If it's yourself, a lot of people don't recognize it until they've, it's really bad. I got a drink in the morning when I wake up or something. But if you start to recognize that you do more of it than you want to and you can't consistently control or predict how much it's going to happen.

[00:15:00] I promised myself I was only going to do X, but then I did more and then I really embarrassed myself or I called my, texted my ex-girlfriend and I didn't laugh because I'm in a relationship with all the things. That's the indicator. Don't wait until you can't not do it. That's in stage terminal level addiction. There's no sense in that. We can spot it early and get control of it while you still can instead of waiting until you can't.

[00:15:27] What advice would you give to someone struggling with self-destructive behaviors after significant life change like divorce? What are some of the things they can do? Well, you know, earlier David, I was telling you the divorce is the right for that, right? Whether it's I'm mad about this divorce, I hate my job, the government, whatever, right? We're just mad at something, resentment, which leads to us feeling sorry for ourself, which pretty much leads to bad decisions.

[00:15:55] Even non-addiction related, right? Ticked off about something. We feel bad about it. We justify that to make a bad decision. And so divorce is ripe for developing addiction, even if it wasn't there before. I have this guy that I've been seeing. He didn't drink. He didn't hardly drink forever. In fact, he was married to an alcoholic woman, so he hated it. He didn't drink at all. Then he got in a relationship after the fact, married to this other woman who broke his heart and then started drinking after that.

[00:16:23] So didn't even develop a problem until probably 40s or early 50s or something, right? Because you're that heartbreak, right? And you start using it to self-medicate. And that's when the game changes on you. When you're using it to self-medicate, that's when it's going to get a hold of you. Yeah. The divorce is ripe for you. Why do you believe relapse is part of the recovery process? And how can individuals reframe those setbacks?

[00:16:52] Because it's like that bargaining phase I was talking about earlier. People will do these, try to cut back or try to take a week off or a month off or three months off or whatever it is. And then they go back to it. So the question is whether they're still bargaining, they're still in a learning process, or whether that's really a relapse. Because I call that, I'm still figuring it out. I wouldn't even call that a relapse. There's that. Then there's this other situation where someone maybe is clean and sober for a period of time, trying to be in recovery, trying to be sober forever.

[00:17:23] And then something happens and they mess up. I would call that a relapse. Most of the time when that happens, you feel, I've screwed it up. I've ruined it. I've got to start all over at day one. I've got to go pick up a white chip. Everyone's telling you, you've got to start over. If this is me, I've been working with you, and you've got a year sober or six months sober or 10 years sober, and you mess up one weekend, I say, we are absolutely not starting over. Heck no.

[00:17:51] You can't take back your recovery days. Absolutely not. We have come too far. You can't unknow everything you've learned. If you've been sober that long, you mess up. Whatever. We're getting right back on it. And maybe if you had 65 days sober and you drank the last two, I'm not going to give you those two. But if you're sober today, we'll start. And I call it damage controlling situation, whereas everyone else wants to be like, you've got to go out of treatment. You've got to start over. You've got to start themselves. I'm like, absolutely not. We're going to figure out what went wrong.

[00:18:21] We're going to analyze the situation and learn something from it. But we're not starting over. And imagine how much easier it is to get back on the wagon if I say you don't have to start over versus you've ruined it all. I knew you didn't mean it. You always say, and I knew you were lying. Because then it's F it. Forget it, man. Bring it on. I've been messed up. Might as well enjoy it. Might as well take it all the way because I'm in trouble, right? You're back to square one. No, we're not bad at square one. Absolutely not. That's what I say.

[00:18:50] We're getting right back on it. So I'm a science guy and I got to go with the science of addiction. Explain the science of addiction. The science of addiction, people call it a disease. And I'm kind of mixed about it. Because the thing is, you look at an addictive brain, it don't work the same. Which I agree with, right? You can look at it neurologically. What's different? You build all these new neuroreceptor sites, especially if it's chemical, your dopamine's out of whack. Your thinking part of your brain is being overruled by the emotional part of your brain.

[00:19:20] All these different brain changes happen. But the thing of it is people think, oh, that's what addiction is. It's this brain problem. Actually, the truth of it is you're addicted for years before those brain changes happen. So instead of it's, oh, you have this brain problem causing addiction, I would say you have addiction causing this brain issue. When you look in an addictive brain and how it functions and what changes, it's almost the exact same as looking at a person's brain that's in love.

[00:19:50] And or looking at a teenager's brain. Your ability to look at things clearly and weigh the pros and cons and the consequences and control your behavior is very limited. But it's really not a broken brain. It's really a state of a brain. Now, if you use a substance long enough, your body gets dependent on it. But that's the thing is I want people to recognize you're addicted long before you need to do it every day. Need to do it every day is because you've been addicted for so long.

[00:20:21] So it's a mind. So it's a mind addiction before a chemical addiction. Psychological before the physical. Physical. OK. All right. And the physical part of it, people say they'll say like about marijuana. They'll say it's not physically addictive. First of all, that's not true. But even if it was true. It's not the physical part that's hard to be. You can get anybody off of anything in five to seven days. Even the hardest core of all heroin and fentanyl and everything. Physically dependent.

[00:20:50] You can address that. It's the psychological part. That's why people go back after being sober for six months and ten years. It's the thinking process. Addiction is an obsession. The dependency happens eventually. But that is just one of the symptoms of the obsession. It's the obsession that has to be. What does so we got what's the birth buzzwords? Narcissism. And how do those play in addictive personalities? Great.

[00:21:20] OK. So if you're dealing with someone who's an addict, they're going to they're going to show all the narcissistic characteristic. Right. It doesn't mean that they're a narcissist. Right. Because they're going to look selfish. They're going to look like they only care about themselves. They're going to look like they have no empathy. Right. They're going to be harmful to the people around them. Right. A lot of times what you're seeing is their behavior looks selfish because they're so controlled by this addiction.

[00:21:49] And when you try to talk to them about it, what you encounter is defensive, which looks exactly the same as narcissism. And you can be both. You can be a narcissist and be an addict or alcohol. And if you're dealing with someone like that, it's super helpful to figure out which one you're dealing with because one can be fixed. And if you want to figure out, OK, is my person truly just this? They don't care. They're just selfish. They don't care about. You need to look at that person before the addiction came up. And see what was there.

[00:22:19] Did they have empathy? Did they have care and concern? Most of the time when you see narcissistic type behaviors with an addict, it's really just around the addiction. Right. They they take money. They do hurtful things. But you can see or they're really mean or defensive. But it's really around this one topic. And so if you're in a situation, you're trying to figure out, do I want to stay or go with this person? Are they a narcissist or an alcoholic? Just because they're not a narcissist doesn't mean you want to stay. But if they are, you definitely tell you that.

[00:22:49] But it looks the same on the outside. It's like teenagers look like narcissists, right? Yeah. Because I said the addictive brand and narcissists, it looks the same, right? It's a brain state. And one is a lot more hopeless than the other. What about the gaslight, gaslighting portion of it? Oh, good question. People that wear gaslighting is associated with narcissism, which it can be, but it is really associated with addict or alcoholic.

[00:23:19] But honestly, I don't think there's anyone that's ever got cornered and called out about anything that hadn't gaslit at one point or the other. It made you, fuck, no, man, I didn't. What was that? We've all done it. It's a defense mechanism. Yeah. And so when you corner up someone with an addiction, it's a reflex. It's like a kid, no, I didn't do it, behind their back. It happens so fast, they hardly even have control of it. That's why I say, if you're dealing with someone, don't say, have you been drinking?

[00:23:49] If you ask the question, they are immediately going to lie. I mean, hey, say it, but they almost can't help it. Yeah. Say, if you're going to say something, which I'm not even saying you should, I would say, you've been drinking, or I can see that you've been struggling. Don't even ask the question, because you're going to get gaslit. It's coming. What happens to the family is they get so caught up in this power struggle, they're literally, because you know they have a problem, they're denying it, they're telling you're crazy,

[00:24:18] they're saying, well, I only drink because you nag me all the time, all the things. And so you start dealing with that by trying to find all this proof. You think, if I can collect enough evidence, if I can find them bottles in the trash, if I can take a video of you, I'm going to present you with this proof, and then you're going to admit it. That's never happened. Not going to happen. It's not going to happen. They're going to get more defensive. They're going to minimize it more. They're going to blame you. They're going to tell you crazy it didn't even happen.

[00:24:46] They're going to tell you, you think I'm alcoholic because your mom was alcoholic. You think everyone's alcoholic. They're just going to say anything to deflect that off because they feel cornered. When you corner people, you're going to get gaslit, blamed, Darvo, whatever, all the things, right? That doesn't mean it's right for them to do that. I'm just saying there's a way to bypass those defenses to get a lot closer to the truth. Directly calling someone. It's like this.

[00:25:14] It's like even when we know we're wrong, if we feel called out, we get defensive. Let's say we're late to work, and we know we're wrong. Maybe we've been late to work five times in the last week, and our boss says, Amber, are you late to work today? I'll do something about that. I may know I was totally wrong, but I am going to say probably, may or may not say, but I'm definitely going to think. You don't understand. I got kids, and there was traffic. You don't even have kids, and you don't even know what school drop-off's like.

[00:25:44] I'm dealing with this crazy ex, and they were supposed to pick them up. That's what I'm going to say. I'm going to gaslight. I'm going to blame. I'm going to rationalize. Minimize. When you come at someone like that, you can pretty much expect that. Depends on their personality, whether they'll say it or not. Some people that are people-pleasing, they'll say, yeah, man, I'm sorry I shouldn't have done that. Even when they say that, they're still thinking the defense. It's a natural human reaction. Don't let it fool you when they say the right thing. They don't mean it.

[00:26:14] Oh, man. That was interesting. Explain the put the shovel down. Yes. It is an old recovery saying. It means you hit your bottom when you put your shovel down. Quit digging, right? You don't have to burn every bridge. You don't have to lose everything. You don't have to mess up your whole family. You can say, you know what? I don't like where this is going. I can be done with this whenever I decide. This whole idea of waiting for bottom gets people killed. Wow. It causes a lot of needless suffering.

[00:26:44] People will be trying to get sober, and someone else will come along in a program and tell you, you hadn't hit bottom, you're not done yet. They'll believe it. That's the dumbest thing. You don't have to hit bottom. You just have to know you're headed that way. Yeah. So my men have about a half hour attention span, and we're almost there. Give me some, give me your pearls for my guys listening. Give me a couple of pearls. Tell me a little bit about you guys and what pearls they might need. They're over 40.

[00:27:13] Most of them are professional, been working. They're recovering from divorce. They're having, most of them have a, have a shit show for co-parenting. Oh yeah. Co-parenting. Co-parenting with my men is a real struggle because from the standpoint, if it was acrimonious, they have a hard time because they can't control what happens at the ex's house, which is interesting. And it happens with a lot of men and they just can't let it go.

[00:27:42] So it's something that tends to happen a lot. What's the common things? God, the ex is using the kids as pawns. Basically my, no, I know someone who's. Okay. I have a friend who, okay. I have a friend. Who's that to use his, their kids as pawns. So he had to go from the standpoint that I love my kids more than I hate my ex. And that got him through it. That was my pearl. Yeah. Yeah. So some of those things that my men go through, what, what can you give them?

[00:28:13] I would say if you're dealing with someone like that, I would almost treat it like dealing with who has an addiction. Wow. If you come at them directly, you're going to get more power struggle. There are ways around people's. And it's not even that hard. It's just emotionally counterintuitive. It's like not hitting the brakes when you're sliding on it, which apparently people, us people in the South, we haven't learned to do that. But apparently it's a thing. Probably in Colorado, you know how to do that.

[00:28:41] Apparently it can be done because your instincts are telling you. Yeah. Break. Break, right? Yeah. Throw a little empathy statement out there to the ex. Oh, I know that sounds great. Oh, come on. Listen. You're killing me. My job for 20 years is getting people to do things they didn't want to do. Yeah. Get people to even like me that didn't want to like me. I'm telling you this can't be done, but you got to get really strategic about it. Your emotions. Yeah.

[00:29:07] One of the things my friend did too was he had two responses when he was pissed. There was a capital K and a small K. So depending on how he felt, he texts back the small K or the capital K. And then it kind of diffused because they couldn't drag you into it. Yeah. So yeah. But man, just think about that now. My friend, he was a good guy. He is a good guy. But yeah. But Amber, I appreciate this.

[00:29:37] You have given us a lot of tools and things to think about, about addiction and the crossover with divorce recovery. Where can my men find you on the internet? I'm everywhere like everybody else. But the best place to find me is on YouTube at put shovel down. Hit that bomb and you put shovel down. If you've been dealing with some level of addiction, maybe you don't even call it addiction, but you're like, it's a bad habit. Or you're dealing with someone else who has one.

[00:30:04] There's a lot of helpful information there for you. I will pretty much show you almost everything you'll find there is probably opposite. If you want to hear something different. Oh yeah. Different. This is a podcast I like because it's off the norm. This is way out of divorce recovery, but it's still relatable, which is so nice. But we appreciate you, Amber. And we'll have those that link on the show notes.