A Divorced Divorce Attorney: From Hurt to Hope: Mastering Life After Divorce 🌈 DPTSP #096 || David M. Webb

[00:00:00] Today, we're thrilled to welcome Michelle Locke to the show, an expert who brings a wealth of knowledge and personal insight into the world of divorce. As a family law attorney with over two decades of experience, a former judge overseeing complex custody cases and someone who has been through a divorce herself, Michelle has seen it all. Now she's turning her focus to the unique challenges of great divorce, divorce later in life.

[00:00:24] Michelle sheds light on critical issues from navigating financial uncertainty and understanding your rights as a stay-at-home spouse. I know some stay-at-home dads. Listen, there are stay-at-home dads. Yes, yes, definitely. And we'll talk about that too. And where was I? Got all excited there for a second about stay-at-home spouse. To reentering the workforce and the emotional toll of untangling decades of shared life.

[00:00:49] Her mission is to empower people with the tools they need to thrive after divorce, no matter their age or circumstances. If you're over 40 and starting over, this conversation will provide you the insights and hope you need to rebuild your life.

[00:01:20] Welcome to the Don't Pick the Scab Podcast with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery, either before, during or after a divorce. Check it out. Take it, Michelle. Well, I don't know. There's so much to start with, but one, thanks for having me. Oh, hey, it was my pleasure. Us, us podcasters have to stick together. Yeah, we do. It's a small network.

[00:01:47] And I didn't realize how small of a circle it was until you started doing it. And then it's like, oh, it really is. And then you can drug. For me, it's a great outlet. And it's a great way to talk about some of the frustrations with family law and help people navigate it.

[00:02:06] Because I really do believe that I think the more people understand how the system works, the more they understand how litigation works in family law, the more they understand that it's not there's four letter words and divorce and fair is not one of them. I think once people start understanding those things, it becomes a less scary environment and a place where people are more likely to advocate for themselves. It's scary to advocate for yourself when you don't understand the system. Well, definitely.

[00:02:30] So with over two decades of a family law attorney and a judge, how does your personal experiences with divorce reshape your professional approach? I always joke that my life was designed to be a family law lawyer because I have literally lived about every side of family law that's possible.

[00:02:50] From a child of divorce to having a stepdad that was instrumental in my life, to having my own stepkids, to being married to a man that had a next wife, to I've just lived and then doing the family law as a judge and presiding over cases and seeing that perspective from the bench. Because that is very much a judge because that is very much a unique perspective that you don't get to see in your advocate role to being divorced myself now.

[00:03:14] I literally have lived about all sides of the spectrum and it provides me a perspective that I think helps clients navigate the divorces a little bit better because I'm pretty upfront and honest about here are the likely outcomes and here are the ranges and do you really want to go fight about this? Because it comes down to, since you've got kids involved, the court doesn't care about you. Court doesn't care about your spouse. Court cares about what happens to those kids.

[00:03:43] And so if you can't take your anger away and refocus it on your children, like your energy under your children, then you're going to get punished with your kids, which means less time or the other parent gets custody. But if you are so fixated on the other side and getting your pound of flesh, you're handling your divorce wrong. Man. So what made you go into the gray side of divorce?

[00:04:08] COVID, believe it or not, changed the divorce game a little bit because I think people are now deciding that they don't want to stay with the person they picked in their 20s past 40. Once the children leave home and what you find is as kids are getting to teenagers, because if you have kids, you know that past like 15, you're not really raising them much. You're just ensuring they stay alive until they graduate.

[00:04:35] They pretty much know who they are and they're going to tell you who they're going to go see and what they're going to do. But once children start getting to that age, you have parents that start reevaluating their spouse choices and selections and figure out what they want to do with the rest of their life. And oftentimes that's I don't I can't do it with this person anymore. And a lot of people in my generation wanted to wait until the kids were 18 to do it, which I don't know that I advise anymore. Although I think I did the same thing, too.

[00:05:03] I don't know that I would advise that any longer on what I know now. But really, I think there's a growth in these divorces where people are just like we're done. And I think COVID helped change that. Well, how has the landscape of divorce changed from when you started to now? Some of the big changes. Can I tell you it's gotten uglier? Seriously? Yeah, I would say I probably now have uglier cases than I had 15 years ago, 10 years ago.

[00:05:32] Like what's ugly about it? Allegations. No one wants to settle. No one wants to be reasonable. I think the general climate in our country is that it's OK to be an asshole. And so people are being assholes and with no apologies about it, which I think is interesting. And I have cases, and I did one recently, where I was basically pleading with opposing counsel, like, this is not going to go well for your client.

[00:05:59] Your client has nothing to gain by going to trial. We are offering better than your best day in court. And they were still saying no. And I knew at the end of that trial that no matter what the result was, she was proposing probably was going to hate my client. And we tried desperately to avoid it, but it was like this indignation. And no, I deserve it. And it wasn't this ugly before. Yeah.

[00:06:30] Yeah. It's, I think the agonist comes from the emotions. You know, once, because you can't take that, you, people don't take the emotions out of the divorce. And once you take the emotions out, I think you can see better, but you're blinded by that rage. And it's really hard. If you didn't see the divorce coming, you had no clue it was coming. And you get sidelined by it, I don't know how you get past the rage. Really?

[00:06:57] Because you're carrying along in life and you think everything's hunky-dory and you and your spouse are having this future planned. And then a divorce gets filed. And that entire blueprint just went out the door. And you have to figure out how to reinvent yourself when you weren't expecting to. And that breeds some serious anger. And probably rightfully, I tell clients, go get a therapist. Go get on some meds during your divorce. There's no problem with doing it.

[00:07:25] I think there used to be some kind of negative connotation if you took meds to help your mental health. But I got to tell you, if you're going through a divorce and you were blindsided by the divorce, go see a doctor and get some help if you need it. There's no shame in it. There's no harm in it. It only helps you. You'd rather do that than carry the anger because that kind of anger, it doesn't help you long term. Yeah. How do you separate the two? How do you stop from being a therapist? Because sometimes you get sucked in. How do you?

[00:07:55] I don't. Straight up. Bam. There you go. Thank you. If I think we're attorneys and counselors at law is where our official title is.

[00:08:06] And I think that couldn't be more accurate, but in the family law context, because truthfully, we are counseling our clients, not just on the implications of the law, but on the implications of what happens with their livelihood, their children, their life savings, their retirement. We are helping them navigate what happens next.

[00:08:29] And, you know, what I tell lots of clients, especially with kids, I say, your kids, zero to 18 is really important. I understand that. Zero to 18 is very important. You're teaching them morals and values and customs and all of those. And it's the memory building and the blocks and the foundation for them. Sorry, my dog's getting his chew toy. But you teach them that from zero to 18, but everyone forgets how much importance there is past 18.

[00:08:59] Like sometimes you have to let go of some of that battle to preserve the relationship post-18. Cosmo, leave it alone. Post-18, because post-18 is where you have the weddings, the college graduation, the big events, the grandchildren. You have all of those things that if you can't put some of that hostility aside much earlier, makes those things much more difficult. Let me show my door here one second. That's all right. Oh.

[00:09:28] When I say we're still in the office, we've got a jury trial coming up in a week and a half. And so it is 12-hour days minimum every day right now. Wow. But that post-18 is important. And if you don't get past that anger and hostility before that, then your kids suffer not just as children but as adults. Man, I'm a child of a divorce too. And then I get divorced.

[00:09:55] How is a man or a person, how can they not wear that shroud? How can they dump that shroud? Because it's hard. It's like two generations. Bam. No, it is. They're a generation. It is. My parents were divorced. I'm divorced. There is that concern of I failed. Yeah. And that was never the plan when you got married. You didn't plan to fail. We don't plan to fail in life.

[00:10:23] And I will tell you, you just need to, I call it pivot or reframe it. It is not a failure. It was the relationship ran its course. It was the first time. And you move on. It was a chapter of your life. It was a novel in your life. And now it's time to start the new novel. And there is hope. It does get better. You do find joy again.

[00:10:54] It's difficult at times. I'm not going to lie. It's difficult to, I went to a wedding this weekend. And I think I was on the back of the wedding, like crying some, like tears in my eyes because I'm just not in the head space. And I do this for a living. And it still, and it affects me. But you're still human. So I can only imagine how it affects people that don't live and breathe this and understand the system day in and day out. Because y'all, the person that should be able to handle it the best is me.

[00:11:24] And there are days where I don't. And it's okay. You have to give yourself grace. Speak to, I did a podcast with a lawyer and he was a internet specialist. How often in cases do people use social media? Oh, Lord have mercy. So I think that gave you my answer. That being said, I tell everyone, anything you put into writing is exhibit A.

[00:11:53] Whether it's social media, whether it's a text, whether it's a Snapchat, whatever it is you put in writing is exhibit A. And so if you don't want it going in front of the court, don't put it in writing. That includes social media. Man. Hit that nerve. Damn. Now let's circle back.

[00:12:16] Listen, I have a case now where I just, we got the credit card statements from the opposing party and saw there's OnlyFans on it. So now I'm going to go back to court and make him turn over the OnlyFans communications. So when I say don't put stuff in writing, don't put stuff in writing. So was he a user of OnlyFans or was he a proprietor? I love that you went to that. It was a he to begin with.

[00:12:41] You just assumed, I'm not going to say whether you're accurate or not, but that being said, it became evident that it was not a source of income, but rather an expense. Okay. All right. Wow. Let's circle back to what we talked about before we started. Yeah. Sorry. It's just going to go sideways. It makes it fun.

[00:13:04] And we were talking about how the ex or how men and women have a hard time not being able to control what happens at the ex's house during off days of co-parenting. And part B of that is one of my guys on the podcast told me that, and have you experienced this where you're on, you're like on, you're on for that week after the kids. And then you're the jack in the box dad. You jump back in the box. You know, the kids are gone for the week and you don't live your life.

[00:13:33] And yeah, it's just a two part question. So there are days where I would love like a weekend to myself. You have to learn how to reframe because split custody for me would be great because it's a, you get to work as hard as you want to work during your off time. Yep.

[00:14:00] And then restructure your schedule so that you can be the completely present parent during your time of possession. It was such a great opportunity that I don't think people view as an opportunity. Yes. You don't get to spend every day with your child growing up and that sucks. You have to split the time with the children. That is no fun. I understand.

[00:14:25] But what you can do is maximize your energies and effort towards them during the time that you have them. And that benefits them long term because you are a present parent when you were there. Think about when you were married and you were miserable and you'd work late at night and not come home because you didn't want to be next to the person you hated. Guess what? You weren't a present parent. And so now you just circumvented the being miserable going home and avoiding your kids.

[00:14:54] And now you can have your kids uninterrupted without someone nagging at you the whole time. You should look at it as a gift. Yeah. But it's hard sometimes because I remember they were high school, junior in LA and it was a week. It was like on. And then I became very frustrated and I felt bad because I couldn't wait for those little sons of bitches to go. Seriously. And someone told me that's normal. And on and on. You're tired. With three kids, it's a lot.

[00:15:22] And I had to reframe that and repackage that. But yeah, that got me through it. Oh, yeah. Listen, you reframe it to you get the opportunity to be fully present. And that when you are married with someone is difficult to do. Yeah. It just is. Especially in a bad marriage, it's difficult to be fully present with your children because then you're managing their moods. And it's just it's so much more complicated as opposed to when it's just you and they are your sole focus. Yeah.

[00:15:51] So what about the guys you can't control? What happens at the ex's house? Divorce is an exercise in learning about lack of control. And I had a dentist once tell me and I'll forget this. Yeah. He's a mislock. His control is an illusion. And I was like, that's because I hate going to the dentist. Who likes going to the dentist? But I have to have nitrous for I have to have. Of course, you do. Yeah. You're going to work. But I have to have nitrous to get a cleaning.

[00:16:21] Like I have severe anxiety going to the dentist. That being said, I was because you're a control freak. I'm like, yeah, he controls an illusion. I'm like, I don't need a philosophy lesson from you. Just give me the nitrous. Quit talking. Let's go. Quit talking. Just give me the nitrous. I'm going to clean the teeth. Yeah. That's what my dentist told me. He controls an illusion. And you know what? He's right. Man. Was he divorced? No.

[00:16:49] Married with a beautiful wife and a bunch of really cute, like obnoxiously cute kids. All right. He knew ahead of time then. He got out early. Wow. Yeah. But he's like, control is just an illusion. I was like, damn it. He's right. What advice would you give someone who feels overwhelmed by the financial complexity? Because that's a big one too, man. That's a big one. Giving up cash. And they don't, sometimes they don't realize that giving up the cash is a good thing in the long run.

[00:17:19] Here's what I'm going to tell you. And I think this is one that people might need to write down. You can't buy time back with your kids. Yeah. You can't. You can always make more. You got to figure out what, you got to pick your battles and you got to figure out what's important. And if time is important with your kids, then you give that other spouse some extra money so you can buy that time with your kids. Because you cannot buy back two years old.

[00:17:48] You cannot buy back their fifth birthday. You can't buy back walking them to kindergarten. You can't buy back any of those memories. Pick your battles. What about, this is a special question, which I've never asked before. I just thought about it. Oh, wow. What about great divorces and navigating social circles? Oh, let's tell you what. In divorces, you definitely find out who your friends are. Oh, you do. Oh, gotcha. Oh, you do.

[00:18:17] You find out very quickly. Very quickly. It's not a kinda. There's a line drawn in the sand and there are... So, navigating social circles. You will find that your social circle probably gets a little bit smaller. And that's okay. You also find out who are your true friends, which I think in life, it is much better to know that than not know that.

[00:18:46] And you find out who you can trust. And that is what's important in life, is you don't need to make everyone, every Tom, Dick, and Harry happy. You don't need everyone to like you. Social circles are important to some extent. I understand that. But not everyone's gonna like you. And that's okay. It doesn't affect your day-to-day. It doesn't affect what you're gonna do. It doesn't affect how well you sleep at night.

[00:19:15] I always say that they're not paying your utility bill. They're not paying utility bills. They're not keeping you warm at night. They're not keeping those cold feet warm. Yep. Those bunions. Oh, heck no. What are some of the key mind shifts that helps someone thrive after a great divorce? How do you shift that mind? What are some of the key mind shifts? Mind shift. It is never too late to start over. Never. It's never too late.

[00:19:45] I have clients that get divorced after 40-something years of marriage, and it's never too late to start over. It's never too late to find happiness. And it's never too late to realize you made a mistake. Those are kind of the big ones. It's never too late. You get to... Life is about learning. Life is about reinvention. Life is about grace.

[00:20:13] And life is about do-overs. You don't get to do over your life, right? You don't get to the pearly gates and say, oh, you were married to that asshole for this many years, so you get this many years back. That would be nice, but you don't. And so it's just don't waste. And don't waste any more time. It's hard to make that call sometimes when you're looking at... Because when a divorce of 20 and 30 years, when that couple is coming to you or one of the parties is coming to you, they have done about everything to make it work. And they're just done.

[00:20:43] Because when you are walking away from that long term of a marriage, you're walking away from so much history. And people are going to take sides. Kids are going to take sides. And the members are going to take sides. And it's going to be tough. But you have to look at the perspective of what do you want the next 15 years of your life to be if God gives you the next 15 years? Do you want to be in that position or do you want to try and invent some happiness for yourself? Because at the end of your life, are you going to look back and go...

[00:21:12] I wish I would. I did differently. Or are you going to say, man, I fucking lived that life. I killed it. I killed it. I killed it. Really? Oh, yeah. You were talking about... And I've read or you talked about that Texas is really hard on spouses of stay-at-home moms or stay-at-home dads. Well, stay-at-home parents. Yeah. Whoever you are, if you're a stay-at-home parent, good luck in Texas. How does that work in Texas? It doesn't work in Texas.

[00:21:41] Texas is an anti-alimony state. And in Texas, we call it spousal maintenance. And so what that means is there's a presumption against a court awarding spousal maintenance in Texas, aka alimony. And if a court orders it, it has to order it for the shortest duration of time in addition to the smallest amount necessary for that spouse to meet their basic minimum reasonable needs. Oh, it's harsh. It is harsh.

[00:22:11] So like the spouse can go back to work? They have to go back to work. Okay. Gotcha. Oh, wow. Not a kind of. Wow. Unless you have an estate that is such that whatever you get as the stay-at-home spouse, and this is because our stay-at-home dads, if whatever you're going to get out of the estate is large enough that you can maintain the lifestyle of not working, then great. But if not, you better figure out plan B. And I tell my stay-at-home parents that come in and consult with me, what's your plan B?

[00:22:41] Because usually they're like, hey, we'll break over to Sizzler. We're going to win this. Right. No. Oh, man. I have sent people away saying, you're not ready. You don't have a plan B. And so it really is unfortunate for the people that, the stay-at-home parents that are blindsided by the divorce because they didn't have a time to come up with plan B. Wow. It's rough. And I say rough. I have litigated this issue in court multiple times. And the result is.

[00:23:11] The same. It's never good for the stay-at-home spouse. Wow. I need to move. Too late now. Listen, don't think there's not some people that move from California to an established residency in Texas before filing for divorce. God, that's wow. That's what I'm saying. When you're considering moving, make sure you consult divorce attorneys in the state you're considering on moving to. And that applies to the spouses as well. It is good to get educated about the laws of the state that you are thinking about moving to.

[00:23:40] Even if you're not getting divorced, just in case. Even if you're not getting divorced, just because you better be prepared. That blows me away. Yeah. Yeah. So when you were going through your divorce, how were you able to separate your identity, your divorce stuff from actually work? How did you keep them? How did you keep your divorce life separate from your work life? Because they intertwine a little bit. They intertwine a little bit.

[00:24:07] My ex is also an attorney, but he's a prosecutor. And we're both litigators. And he'd been through a divorce before, and he knows I do this for a living. And so we came to very reasonable terms very early on because neither one of us wanted to drag it out through the courts or affect the children that way. Because they didn't ask for their two parents to not get along.

[00:24:34] And so we did our best to do it as efficiently as possible. But there was bleeding over. I got to tell you, there were days where it was miserable for me. I remember there are times where I was doing work on cases and it would hit too close to home and I had to give myself a timeout. So it's not easy, but we did it the best way we could knowing what we know. And we have an advantage over most people because we're both lawyers. Yeah.

[00:25:04] And it's probably an unfair advantage for us, quite frankly. But we also came to reasonable terms. Wow. How important is financial literacy for someone going through a great divorce? Oh my goodness. It is paramount. Like paramount quite often in long-term marriages. There'll be one spouse that controlled the money and the investments and the resources and did all the taxes and knows all those things. And there's almost always a spouse that does not.

[00:25:33] That's just that as marriage duties are divided and conquered, that's how things work. So if you are the spouse that does not have the financial picture under control, then you need to get a financial advisor, a CPA, someone who has the expertise to help you navigate it. Because if there's an estate, you need to know how much you're going to potentially get out of it,

[00:25:58] how that can be reinvested, how that tax consequences of certain divestiture of assets, and what basis you get when you transfer property between spouses. And it's so much more complex. And you can dig yourself into some big holes if you don't know what to look for. So you want to make sure that you reach out to people who are financially savvy.

[00:26:24] And do not rely on your ex or your soon-to-be ex to be honest and forthright and up and coming, or very forthright with what they have. Because when y'all are in a divorce, they're no longer your friend. They're no longer your buddy. They're looking out for themselves. And so you need to look out for yourself as well, which means you arm yourself with the experts that can advise you properly. Wow.

[00:26:51] I'll have to tell you that way back in the day, my ex was mad that I went and got a lawyer. She wanted me to just listen to hers. Don't they always? Is that a thing? Yeah, it's a manipulative thing. Absolutely. No way. Is that a thing? Oh, it is. So what I do see happening is a lot of times you will, like, for example, if it was you, that you would have an attorney that you were consulting with, that she wouldn't know about

[00:27:19] if you did what she wanted, and that you would run everything by that attorney, and then the attorney would draft the response for you, and you would send it to her yourself so she wouldn't know you had an attorney. That happens a lot, too. So you always assume, don't always assume that because the person is unrepresented technically, they don't have someone advising them. And then all of a sudden pop. So after a great divorce is done, what are some of the steps you would recommend to people after their great divorce? You're going to laugh at this one.

[00:27:48] Throw a divorce party. All right. You got to get closure. Their spouse, your ex-spouse isn't going to give it to you, so make your own closure. I threw myself a divorce party. Actually, that's not true. My friends did. And it was, I highly recommend it. Highly recommend it. So was it bar hopping or was it a house? We rented a house. Okay. Oh, rented a house. So you didn't tear up your own. Correct. It was one of the girlfriend, one of my girlfriends that threw it for me.

[00:28:18] It was her house, but it was her rental house or her Airbnb house. But no, we had a pool party, went out for a great dinner, had drinks, had a cake. It was a party. I would highly recommend it because you need closure. And when I told my mom, who's 75, that they were throwing me a divorce party, she was like, that makes no sense. Why are you celebrating it? I'm like, we celebrate everything, mom. We throw parties for everything.

[00:28:47] Why not turn it into, because what are you going to do, be down in the dumps about it? Or just change your mindset? Let's celebrate. See? I'm not going to sing. Yeah. There you go. You're still in the mood. Give me three things you can tell my men over 40 going through or been through a great award. Give me three top things you can give them before we go. The first one's a joke, but I'm actually not joking. Do not date someone half your age if you want to co-parent with your ex-spouse.

[00:29:17] Why? Really? You have to ask why? What? I don't understand. What are you saying? Oh, no, don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Because it's just going to make... Okay. So if you're doing a great divorce, so you're a woman over 45. Your prospects of finding a man like over 50 as a woman, like that's a good eligible man, you probably have a better chance of getting struck by lightning at that point.

[00:29:44] Because we can't do what you men can do, which is go trade us in for a new model. And you guys can go trade us in for a new model. And so if you divorce a long-term wife and you're the one that got asked for the divorce and you're the one that did it and she didn't see it coming, and then you go out and get someone that's 25 to 29, kiss your co-parenting relationship goodbye. Especially if the kids are grown. Correct. Oh, interesting.

[00:30:13] Because she will go... I say she will. Yeah, don't... I'm just... I'm just... If you do it, just know you're inviting a war. What happens if you really love her? Okay, number two. I'm sorry. I try to be really honest. I give you like the blunt advice. You have just worked right and honest the whole podcast. I appreciate that. Two is put the focus on the kids.

[00:30:40] Whether they're adults or whether they're young. And really, when I say put the focus, never share adult issues with your children. I don't care if they're adult children or not. What happens between you and their parent is none of their business. Because as children of the parties, they have loyalties to both.

[00:31:08] They don't have the ability to forgive and move on like the parents do. And so you start spilling your business to those kids, particularly adult ones as well. You're doing damage. And that's... Believe it or not, it's not a service to your kids. It's not. It's a disservice to them. So do not share adult information with your children or children of the marriage. It's none of their business. It's...

[00:31:38] We didn't work out. It is. So that's probably number two. Don't share. And I really... Not kidding you. That means 18 and up. I don't care if they're adults because I've had people say, oh, they're adults we can share. No, you can't. They're still children of the marriage. Oh, number three. Find your happiness. Find some joy. You don't have to reinvent the wheel to find joy or to find happiness, but make it a point

[00:32:07] to find joy every day. Because you could have the worst day of communications with your ex-spouse where you just want to commit hairy carry. Find joy. Find something that day that you can go, oh, that's nice. Or go watch a comedy show and laugh. Do something each day to make you smile at some point. Small wins. Small wins. Because those keep you going, even when the other side drives you mad.

[00:32:38] Michelle, this has been interesting. This has been fun. Oh, my God. If someone says interesting, I'm like, oh, I didn't go well. This has been fun. And as usual, we've only scraped that at the top of the iceberg. But we'll know how to find you. I'm easy to find. You can go to my website, michellelock.com or on Instagram at AttorneyMichelleLock. I'm really easy to find. All right. And we'll have that at the bottom of the show notes. But man, this has been fun. A couple of times ago, I was crying. But thank you very much. Yeah.

[00:33:08] I've had a friend of mine that says, you're not funny. I said, really? I have some people that think I'm funny. Oh, hell yeah. You are funny as hell. Oh, yeah. So hold on here. I'm going to tell him you said that too. Oh, hell yeah. But thank you for your time. But hold on for a second. Yes, sir.