Your attorney is not your life coach in your divorce / Cybersecurity and divorce - Jonathan Steele, J.D. || DPTSP#043 || David

[00:00:15] Welcome to the Don't Pick the Scab Podcast with the premise of connecting man over 40 with the tools and community To thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during or after a divorce Check it out. Welcome everyone out there to Don't Pick the Scab Podcast Episode 43

[00:00:35] Podcast from Man Over 40 either starting in the middle of or done with their divorce journey We present some of the tips tricks and methods for you to heal and move on with your new life Welcome Jonathan Steele to the podcast. He's an attorney from Chicago, right? That's correct

[00:00:51] Who specializes in family law and divorce law his new focus is cyber security So we're going to touch on that too. He actually started a secure a cyber security firm called steel fortress Tell us about yourself. I got a couple questions for you Jonathan

[00:01:05] Sure, I'm a divorce lawyer as you mentioned So anything that you would most likely try to avoid in your personal life So divorce eternity pre-nups post-nups. I do all of that. I've done that for 12 13 years at this point as an attorney

[00:01:21] I'm a partner at law firm birman in Chicago We're about 50 or so lawyers that do exclusively Family law mostly divorce Let's talk about some of the buzzwords. Let's just go ahead start with that

[00:01:34] Narcissism and gas lining those are the new buzzwords in divorce. What do you think about those words? If there's a frequent flyer of something that I hear Multiple times a day. It's that my spouse is a textbook narcissist

[00:01:49] You don't understand i'm telling you he or she really is And i'm not a psychologist so I don't You know engage too much in those labels but I think it's maybe it's fitting sometimes I think it's probably misused pretty often, but it comes up almost always

[00:02:08] Yeah, so with narcissism being one of the misconceptions of Divorce law. What are some of the other common misconceptions about divorce law that you've encountered over your years? I think as you mentioned gas lighting is a term that is making its way into the popularity list

[00:02:25] I think that term is also misused that there's a number of other common misconceptions mainly Oh my spouse got a good lawyer. We're in trouble and that's about as far from sure as possible I welcome good lawyers. They're much easier to deal with they

[00:02:41] Understand the law. They don't need to learn on the job on the client's time So that's a good thing and then there the misconception that Moms win everything when it comes to the kids and that's just not how it is anymore

[00:02:53] The law has moved pretty far away from that being the starting point So those are a couple common misconceptions. I think you know on the carato springs carato and divorce here it's most of the co-parenting is 50 50

[00:03:10] And a lot of states have done that it's except for the southern states There's quite a few southern states that do the 80 20 thing is Illinois one those 50 50 states We moved closer to That I don't know that we put numbers on it, but the statute nowadays

[00:03:27] It presumes that it's in the child's best interest to spend an equal amount of time with both parents And then you move off of that based on fact specific circumstances in each case

[00:03:39] What do you see some of the differences between older men we talked about that we touched on that earlier Older men divorcing and younger men divorcing. Well, what are some of the differences and some of the problems? And or wins or fails that you see I guess

[00:03:54] I think it depends on what you mean by older and younger But if we're saying younger is in the 20 to 30 range and older maybe in the 40 or 50 years that range Um, I think the issues are similar. You're facing child issues. You're facing valuation and

[00:04:12] Assignment of property and debt, but I'd say the stakes are different If you're getting divorced at 25 and you're restarting your life It's easier. You've accumulated less wealth Your the majority of your life is ahead of you if you're getting divorced at 40 or 50

[00:04:29] You've built up a little bit of money Restarting isn't as easy Maybe your dating prospects have narrowed a bit over time Maybe you have fewer friends. Your friend pool has thinned out a little bit So I think just the stakes I would say Increase as you get older

[00:04:50] Is uh, Illinois a big mediation state because Colorado is they try to do mediation first and they try to thin the roles of the judges by mediation Um, and with that fact is a mediation big in Illinois

[00:05:07] And what do you suggest for man over 40 to go into mediation because you can't go in pissed off No, you can but you're not going to have much success. So

[00:05:18] To answer your first question, I'd say it's big. It depends on your lawyer. It depends on is there a power imbalance in the couple sometimes if One of the parties is a lawyer then the other party doesn't feel on equal footing coming into something like mediation

[00:05:34] Or if there's domestic violence, you don't go that route But other than that There are certain types of issues and certain types of cases where mediation is mandatory

[00:05:45] And courts are enforcing that because their dockets are cases at any given time if they can shift some of that on the mediation They do And I know you're not a therapist, but I know sometimes you walk that fine line with your clients. How do you handle that?

[00:06:02] Because you've seen the good and the bad and the ugly. How do you handle that? I find myself wearing a therapist hat More than I find myself wearing a lawyer hat And it's not my training. It's not my education

[00:06:15] But it's out of necessity because people are going through what ends up being likely the most traumatic experience they end up ever go through and I'm their first point of contact and they call me and Most of the time the calls they don't touch on any legal issues

[00:06:32] it's more to tell me that their spouse caused the breakdown and they're a bad person and they Are a textbook narcissist and they are making them feel bad or they're a bad parent And the most you're really going to get out of a lawyer is

[00:06:46] We understand we're sorry that you're going through this It doesn't seem like it in the moment, but there is an end in sight and you will get through it But I tell people all the time you're better off taking these calls to

[00:06:59] A friend a family member a therapist your dog a stranger anybody Because you know as a lawyer we're charging you eight or nine dollars a minute And we can't really give you good advice like a therapist could Wow

[00:07:14] In your experience, what are some of the common mistakes and pitfalls men Encountered doing the divorce process? What do they jump the gun bad attitude? What are some of the pitfalls that they create themselves? I'd say one of them is if you have a child and

[00:07:32] You move out of the marital residence right off the bat because Tension is thick and you can't stay living on top of each other that sometimes Starts you out in a disadvantaged position because now you don't live with the child And so you're fighting for parenting time

[00:07:51] Or as if you stuck it out in the house You're going to see your child more often at least in those early stages where you're just trying to get a hearing on the schedule I'll often tell people as painful as it is to stay under the same roof

[00:08:06] If you can do it stay under the same roof unless you don't have kids then by all means move out if you can afford two homes So that's a pretty common one. I did a when I got divorced I moved down into the home theater and

[00:08:20] Got I got some pre-kale sheets and I stayed there until we separated like in the final orders But I wanted to see my kids every day and I did not just what you said I did not want to abandon basically of the kiddos and we ended up doing 50 50

[00:08:35] And some of the things co-parenting for me Was a struggle at first. What are some of the things you could tell men out there to maybe To jump start the co-parenting a little bit better because I learned on the cuff And it was brutal

[00:08:52] Yeah, it's hard to tell somebody how to be a good parent. It comes with experience. There's no rule book Nobody really tells anybody how to be a good parent I know what I've seen that Is problematic

[00:09:05] And I would caution against those things such as badmouthing the other parent. It's hard to not do it We were in the middle of the divorce. They're making your life hell You are fighting with them about all the little things in the world

[00:09:20] And so it's tempting to say your mom She doesn't want you to see me or your mom won't let you Come over on saturday or she won't let you get into these extracurricular activities but it just it creates tension for the child and Children have a tendency to

[00:09:40] Want to blame themselves for the divorce that because it gives them some element of control if they think that they are to blame And so they you got to put it aside for their sake

[00:09:52] Once they're out of the home by all means talk all you want about your spouse, but as best you can You got to filter that around your child What are some of the general Maybe some general advice Of I know you can't go into specifics

[00:10:09] What's some of the general advice that you could give To navigate the process of dividing assets and retiring mid accounts business interests during the divorce Just generally I think if you the more organized you are

[00:10:22] The easier the process is going to be very few lawyers are going to let you Resolve your case by way of settlement or trial Without full disclosure of everything. So if you get a whether you're the person filing for divorce or whether you get servants of

[00:10:38] Orpapers now's the time to start assembling documents You're going to need your tax returns You're going to need a couple years of bank statements and retirement account statements You're going to need your credit card statements

[00:10:49] And the more organized you are to be able to just dump those on your lawyer at the infancy stage of your case The faster it's going to go the less expensive

[00:10:58] It's going to be the less fighting the less court appearances are going to be related to I need this document I need that document So that that would be one of the things that I would encourage Have you seen the term repeat business yet? In your tenure

[00:11:16] We're referring to Someone that's been twice. Yeah I've had clients that have been divorced twice. I've had clients that have been divorced from the same spouse twice Wow That's that that's interesting. I'm a second generational Divorcy my parents got divorced when I was in they separated

[00:11:38] undergrad they divorce in grad school And that that kind of weighs on your psyche once you get divorced because you go through the feelings of failure What when you when we have that therapy hat, do you refer people to a therapist?

[00:11:53] Do you say hey, maybe you got to go see this guy or reach out? More and more I am doing that. I will connect people with therapists more so now I'm starting to connect people with life coaches I think that those can be an asset

[00:12:08] They're a little bit more forward-looking and goal oriented because some people seem to have a tendency to Use their past as a crutch or an excuse for why they are the way they are

[00:12:19] Today and some therapists allow people to stay stuck in their past and they don't really move forward So I will refer people to both therapists and to life coaches I think if you're suffering from mental health issues or you are dealing with trauma from your past

[00:12:35] There's no better place to be than in therapy. Absolutely. I will send people to therapy Definitely one of the things I find when I'm on like reddits and and facebook pages A lot of the men have a hard time letting go of

[00:12:51] Not being able to let go of controlling the other household But you have two households and they really don't mix And especially if the divorce is contentious these guys can't let it go

[00:13:03] What kind of advice can you give to them? It's going to be advice that's easier said than done, which is just You got to give up that control. You're never going to be able to Police the rules that are being enforced in the spirits spouses home

[00:13:18] You're never really going to know if they have a boyfriend staying over when they shouldn't or Yeah, that's big dude. Yeah, if if they're exposing the child to Drugs or alcohol, it's really hard to know. It's hard to put teeth or enforcement to

[00:13:36] Even judgments that prohibit that kind of conduct To the extent it's not something that's endangering your child and it's more just like Preference like you don't want them to be playing certain video games or you don't want them to be on their phone at certain hours

[00:13:51] You have to just Give up that control. It's not something you can control anymore than your spouse can control in your home So it's a struggle for sure in both directions

[00:14:03] I tell them that that maybe concentrating on being the best father you could be while you have your kids and uh, like I said, I had mine 50 50 percent 50 50 and uh When they left me the first couple of weeks or month or two

[00:14:18] I was devastated and they got to the point where I was week on week off. I was into it And then it got to the point where I couldn't wait for them to leave I felt so bad about that

[00:14:33] But people tell me that was normal because you're a single parent like week on week off bam So it's almost like you need a break Yeah, parenting time is a responsibility as much as it is a right It's tiring caring for kids by yourself. That's no easy feat

[00:14:47] I had three teenagers So yeah, I was Yeah, I was kicked in the teeth. I wouldn't trade off any world. They turned out great We we got through it. What do you speak to the resilience of children?

[00:15:00] Um, I know there's problems in divorce with kids sometimes but man kids are more resilient than people think Absolutely sometimes people end up staying together in a bad marriage because they're worried about the kids and how it's going to impact them And the data on that is clear

[00:15:17] It's the marital discord in one home that Impacts a child far more than a divorce does so two happy homes is always better than one unhappy home Children adapt they they move schools all the time and they thrive. They make new friends there's always

[00:15:36] Somebody that's trying to fight some sort of change or increase in parenting time saying they're used to it This is what they know and judges really don't buy it if it's I want to give dad more time

[00:15:49] The kid's gonna adapt. They're gonna be fine. They're going to thrive. They are resilient They make it through divorce. They make it through changes in parenting time changes in Where they live where they go to school all of that. So they're absolutely resilient

[00:16:05] Do you find that because my kids were older they were in high school And do you find that younger kids there's an easier transition because that's all they know So we think about that There's something to be said for the longer you Acclimate to a certain environment

[00:16:23] The harder it is to change it There's also I mentioned earlier that most states have moved away from the What used to be called the tender years doctrine, which was

[00:16:35] At the early ages the child is better off with mom and that's just not the case anymore and I think that just categorically it could be said that as Children are younger But there's those early years where you have an amnesia stage almost so if you're

[00:16:53] Three three years old when your parents get divorced you may not even remember any life together as a family unit So it probably is better in those years to to have the split

[00:17:06] I think the older you get the harder it may end up being on a child there when you get closer to College age even then kids start to wonder did you stay together just because of me?

[00:17:16] And that's not well received by any kids a long answer to a short question But yeah, I think that it's probably easier when you're younger Yeah, so what do you do to relax? How do you shake all that off? You've got clients. They get on your nerves

[00:17:30] They don't listen. How do you shake that? Shit off There we go. I don't know that I'm doing it I had some color in my hair at some point and it's pretty much all gone It's hard, you know it

[00:17:44] I don't lose sleep over all of the issues that I face if somebody walks out of their divorce with 3.8 million versus four I'm not losing sleep over it. It's money. You'll always make more you're going to be okay

[00:17:57] But there are certain issues that I deal with that are heavy If you're talking about whether or not somebody's going to get a restraining order and if they don't are they going to be hurt? That could be heavy Clients tend to fight every imaginable battle under the sun

[00:18:12] You might fight over a 315 pickup from school or a 330 pickup That doesn't get to me so much But if you're fighting about are you ever going to pick up your child because you've been accused of being an endangerment then

[00:18:25] That could be heavy when if you drop the ball Trying that case for someone and they don't get to see their child again. That could be tough. So what do I do to? de-stress I exercise a lot

[00:18:39] It's tough. There's no there's no easy answer to that at all It's hard. I don't ever really take my lawyer hat off. It's it's on all the time. So I don't know that I do a good job of de-stressing Do you find yourself working at home?

[00:18:54] All the time. Oh, yeah The one of the things I learned I told you I was a dentist years ago is I never look at the next day schedule And that one thing it took me years to figure that simple thing out

[00:19:10] I never look at the next week's next day schedule. So that that kind of rolls with me Let's talk about and I asked the same question to another lawyer and it was very interesting. What about pets Have you seen arguments with pets does it get petty with pets?

[00:19:29] I like the punny that was punny. Yeah for a long time up until very recently pets were Just treated as property. So they might be allocated to one pet parent or one party or the other

[00:19:44] Now more and more states are writing them into the statute to allow the courts to award Basically visitation or parenting time Yeah Yeah, and I've actually had court cases where I have fought about is a pet

[00:20:01] Nonmarital property and we have to trace who paid for the pet and who paid for the vet visits It's it's petty they're not I love dogs. I always have but they're not kids get a new dog move on It's probably as petty to fight over animals

[00:20:20] So you've got the attention of all my guys over 40 And you have three things to tell them whether top three things you want to tell them to help them through their divorce journey Find a resource other than your attorney for

[00:20:35] Everything that's not a legal issue. Not only are your Venting conversations Expensive they're not productive your lawyers are not trained to help you with personal issues So find a therapist find a life coach Find a friend

[00:20:56] Find some sort of support groups some sort of resource talk to someone else because you're not going to get the help you need Talking to your lawyer But what you are going to do is burn up a ton of money

[00:21:07] So that would be one if you're in the middle of your divorce case And this is another thing where it's easier said than done try to take a step back and look At your case as a whole it's easy to get blinded by emotion while you're going

[00:21:22] Through the process and it's easy to want to Fight every imaginable battle because you're trying to get revenge or make your spouse uncomfortable Or you want to see them squirm on the witness stand But That's a very short term gain if any to do that

[00:21:43] And you might be doing it at the cost of hurting your ability to co-parent with the child's mother at the end of the case Choose your battles judiciously fight the ones that are worth fighting and let go of the ones that aren't worth fighting If you're fighting over

[00:21:58] Cups and forks and spoons. Let it go buy a new set If you're better off putting your child through college, then you are putting my children through college save for that Fight the fights worth fighting which is

[00:22:11] The time with your child you mentioned it earlier. It's important to be the best dad you can be so it's oh Don't count the minutes It's the quality of the time that matters if you're saying My spouse is getting 12 hours on one day and i'm only getting

[00:22:28] A half hour less. So this isn't a true 50 50 Focus on what it is that you're doing During your time with your child It's the quality far more than it is the quantity. So you got to avoid counting the minutes And then I'd say post divorce

[00:22:47] Do your best. It's easy to get down on yourself. It's easy to get depressed and to feel loneliness and Trying to adjust to a new normal of as you mentioned now Parenting all by yourself

[00:23:03] And you don't have anyone to lean on and maybe you are alone for a long period of time before you Get back on your feet. You got to do what you have to do to take care of you Your kids need the best version of you

[00:23:16] But that doesn't mean you can't start drinking and doing things like that to cope if you have to Exercise or you have to join a support group or you need to get into therapy or Even get into your work more

[00:23:29] Whatever you need to do to take care of yourself makes you a better parent at the end of the day it's important to To pay some attention to yourself if you have to get back on what is a bumble or

[00:23:41] Tinder or whatever it is to try to meet someone I I miss that generation myself Fortunately or unfortunately as the case may be but I think it's it's an easy way to start for some people

[00:23:51] It's easy to sit on your couch and flip through and see what's out there Yeah All right, Jonathan we want to appreciate you taking time. That was fun. That was interesting I like the dog thing that was

[00:24:04] And it's so common lately people are so petty and it's just a means is me tell the people out there where to find you Oh, oh wait cyber security and divorce. There we go

[00:24:15] What about those two? There is an overlap pretty often more and more so nowadays because People end up fighting harassment cases restraining order cases based on So and so texted me from a burner phone number. Can we prove it somehow?

[00:24:33] Or a burner app where it's not really tied to the person's phone number So those issues keep cropping up and pretty often somebody will come in at the beginning of their case Ready for divorce or having just filed and they're pretty certain that their spouse

[00:24:48] Has access to their emails has access to their i-messages or their photos or Have their hand in their data somehow or another And so it's a question of How do I unplug that? How do I make sure that

[00:25:04] My emails with my lawyer are safe my emails with my family are safe My texts with my friends aren't being read by my spouse and collected as evidence there ends up being a lot of overlap and questions from clients about how to navigate that safely and

[00:25:21] I found myself just falling into that and being able to advise clients about How to protect yourself from a cyber security perspective, but also to keep your data private

[00:25:33] Once again, I want to thank you johnathan for talking with us. I'm going to tell the people out there where to find you Yeah, you can find me on the law firm website as biermanlaw.com or as you mentioned steel fortress.com

[00:25:45] And any questions I can answer for any of your viewers. I'm happy to do so as a pleasure to be on your show All right, we will have the sites on the show notes and go from there

[00:25:55] Just hold on the line and I appreciate it. Everybody have a good night