Understanding Generational Trauma / How to Heal After Divorce: Dr. Ernest Ellender, PhD. || DPTSP #105

[00:00:00] Welcome to our truly remarkable guest, Dr. Ernest Ellender, a powerhouse in the realms of psychology and martial arts. With a PhD in clinical psychology and a black belt, Ernest combines the discipline of martial arts with the intricacies of mental health. He founded Louisiana's first CrossFit affiliate and has dedicated his life to understanding trauma, culminating in his groundbreaking book on healing from generational family traumas.

[00:00:28] Now, as a life coach, he empowers men over 40 to reclaim their lives post-divorce, offering insights that blend trauma-informed care with practical strategies for personal growth. Get ready for an enlightening conversations that uplift and inspire. What do you think, Ernest? Dr. Ernest Ellender, PhD. That sounds great, man. That sounds great.

[00:01:05] Welcome to the Don't Pick the Scab Podcast with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce process. Dr. Ernest Ellender, PhD. That's awesome. Dr. Ernest Ellender, PhD. That's awesome. Much appreciated, David. That's awesome. Tell us a little about yourself. I got some questions for you. Awesome. Yeah. I'm Ernest Ellender, man. I was born and raised in South Louisiana, the bayous and swamplands and adventurous childhood, I'd say.

[00:01:34] My parents really focused a lot on education, and I performed well in education. I basically traveled the country and somewhere to the world to pursue that education. I ended up in the field of psychology. I really like making a living trying to help. It's just great fun. The harder you work, the better everybody is. The better off everybody is. Yeah. That brought me here. I'm now functioning as a life coach and also teaching at a buddy's jiu-jitsu school.

[00:02:04] I actually shut my own martial arts school down just last year. I started to focus on book, writing, and things like that after 15 years of coming down to working with clients to a few motivated clients, while focusing a little bit more on bringing that knowledge to a greater audience, which is where great podcasts like yours come in. There you go. What is this with the... Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[00:02:30] Now, so what inspired you to transition from clinical psychology to life coaching? What was the transition there? A number of things. Let's say one is just like the functional logistics, which is when working under the, what do you call it, the insurance regime, whatever insurance policy. I got whoever wanted to come, whoever was on the list of therapists for whatever insurance I had.

[00:02:58] So basically I got a lot of general people coming in. But my specialty, what I really enjoy is working with clients who had, let's say rough childhoods, whose childhood is still causing problems in their adult life. So I wanted to specialize in that. You break, it's not covered by insurance and therefore it's direct pay and whatnot. So I wanted people who wanted to work on that specifically. Gotcha. So that was one. Yep.

[00:03:27] Another reason I took a break in order to finish the book. It took me about seven years to create the curriculum and run it for a few years to refine it. It's structured as like a rules based thing to help remember and practice things. And it went from, it went started at 13, then it kept going 15, 17, ended up at 20. And then I ran that for a few years.

[00:03:54] So it took a while to, I don't want to say perfect because it's always improving, always modifying. But it took a long time to get that dialed in way. I really, it was very helpful to my client. And at that point, I, if I didn't take time off, there was no way that I would ever finish it. It was a bit challenging. It's the first time I've ever written the book. So the whole process was new to me. I ended up, it ended up taking me about a year and a half, had it all written. It was 400 something pages.

[00:04:25] And then started the editing process. It was a year and a half before it was finally. Wow. Not editing. Yes. Bad editor, first round. Then I wasn't satisfied with the product. Went to become a second editor who was phenomenal. And then there's actually several different types of editors. I was the developmental editor. And then somebody who had great reviews, but was substandard in my opinion. Didn't like the product and ended up, so lots of delays and whatnot, but long story short.

[00:04:54] After many delays and much costly delays, it was finally produced in a way that I was satisfied with. I think this would be received and it's quality. And that's what played out. So anyway, that was a major kind of like stopped psychology for this year, a year and a half to focus on this. It was very meaningful to me. It was the most important thing that I've done in my life, I think, in the means of trying to help other human beings on a larger scale. So it was just very important to me.

[00:05:23] And so when I restarted, I said, do I want to restart? And that runs a lot of other benefits. Wow. Yeah. How can martial arts principles help men navigate the emotional challenges of divorce? Man, it, when I started martial arts, I thought that Jiu Jitsu was for every single person. I now accept, I was so obsessed with it.

[00:05:49] I accept that it's not necessarily for everyone, but martial arts or some other consistent study that is like to me, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was so maximally challenging to me. It, it challenged me physically. It's so challenging. It is intellectually very stimulating and challenging, very, that you are growing. So whether you are being, becoming more effective on the mats or not. So as you progress, it is very felt.

[00:06:18] You can't fake it. You can't read it. You're physically doing it. And over time, it's a systematic learning and strengthening of the body, mind and psyche. It's on top of that individual. Speaking just as a male, there's a, there is that kind of macho, macho, male to male thing. Like growing up in South Louisiana, there's, it's a very macho kind of mindset, conservative mindset.

[00:06:48] And so to have this arena in which after several years, it developed a level of confidence, I guess I always lacked in childhood and teenage years. That's just very different. It doesn't mean I think I can keep that covered by kick everybody's butt around here. Not that at all. It just knowing what I am capable and what I'm not capable.

[00:07:10] That's very reassuring to know these things instead of just think about it and guess after watching these movies and then thinking maybe you do okay in this. That provided this, this very stable environment in which you're surrounding yourself by people who are like-minded, who also enjoy emotional and physical challenges, who are, who made it very, a part of their weekly experience.

[00:07:39] To challenge themselves and grow. So you're around a bunch of people who are willing to challenge themselves and grow, make themselves vulnerable, challenge themselves and grow. And just add, put that on auto repeat week after week, month after month. And in three or four years, it's like you're just functioning on a different level. So I think it has a tremendous amount. It can be a very stabilizing activity. In different martial arts schools, if people are like, oh, let me go check out these martial arts schools.

[00:08:07] You can, you can, you can, yoga places, dancing school. There's all these are arenas in which you can find community. But if you're looking for a martial arts community, I would recommend people shop around. You go there and look, watch the activities that you're doing. And then when you meet people, the instructor and the other students, before you sign up, are these people that are impressive to you? Or are these people that are nice that you feel like you would fit in with?

[00:08:36] Or are they big tough guys and acting like tough guys? Oh, maybe that's good if you're a tough guy. And maybe you're, that is intimidating and doesn't feel very inviting. And I would shop around until you feel the place that says, yeah, I'll make this my home for a little while and see how it, see what it offers me. But it can be a very stabilizing force. I've, my best, some of my best, like most consistent relationships were developed through the martial arts.

[00:09:05] I have friends now who are friends of 15 and 20 years that have made through martial arts. So like-minded people. Yeah. Like-minded people is huge. And like-minded people in an arena in which they are accustomed to challenging themselves and grow. That's what turns them on. That's pretty cool. You surround yourself by people who look like that thriving picture of who you want to be, how you want to look.

[00:09:35] Yes. What are some of the common misconceptions about trauma recovery that men have, you think? Oh, okay. I think it's popularized in the movies that go to therapy and then there's some massive realization like, oh, my childhood was not, this was not my fault that my parents divorced and things like that. And those momentary realizations are indeed necessary and they're wonderful when they come.

[00:10:02] And it's this momentary, wow, I did not know that. That's like a, the brain catching on to this idea. Also education sometimes, like education is a big part of growing. You know, whereas we educate ourselves about how a child's brain works. What are the four, what are the different survival modes? What are unhealthy dynamics? What does it mean to have toxic shame?

[00:10:29] And what is overindulgent dynamics in a relationship? What are the educational part is important for me to just understand what went wrong. But one of the misperceptions is that though the education and these momentary like epiphanies, these realizations will do the trick and that's all we need to do.

[00:10:48] I find what's missing, what a lot of people miss is that a lot of times the things that went wrong with that we did not have critical skills for a successful marriage, successful relationship because they were not taught to us as children. And so to develop these skills, much like in a martial arts, you can educate me about this technique or about this martial art, which means I read about it and I watch shows about it. And I had this epiphany.

[00:11:17] Oh, if I had that, then I wouldn't have gotten beaten up so much. But if I don't go and develop that skill and train it weekly, daily, monthly, yearly, then I'll never develop the skill that is required to be successful.

[00:11:32] So if I, if, you know, we have poor conflict resolution communication skill because our parents and family did not teach that to us in childhood, then of course, you're not going to have that skill to use in a marriage. And when it falls apart, okay, we can go to therapy and sometimes say, okay, that person was combative. Wait a minute, we need to develop the skill. We have to practice the skill.

[00:12:02] Otherwise we get in the next relationship and we still don't have conflict resolution communication skill. So that's a big part that I think is missing a lot of times. That's one thing that men miss in this concept of therapy. I'll figure something out and learn something. And then everything will be, it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of work.

[00:12:26] We have to work on ourselves and figure out where that needs to, where we need to apply those efforts. Yeah. Can you explain the concept of generational trauma? That's almost like a buzzword sometimes you hear. Yes. And that man, that's, oh my goodness, we could go for hours on that. But the most, the most brief definition is the traumatic individual events. We sometimes get hyper-focused on that, that this trauma was handed down to the next generation.

[00:12:54] But in reality, there's many different things in that concept. There's both individual experiences that people think of, like all the, in this, in my family, maybe they were physically abused or emotionally abused or neglected, things like that. But also in that camp of intergenerational trauma is I was just referring to the lack of skills.

[00:13:20] So when somebody is neglected, the parents might be both working or both busy with, you know, substance abuse issues or things like that. But the child is growing up without mentorship, without skills being taught to them about how to be effective in the world and how to be effective in mutually loving, mutually respectful, mutually skilled relationships.

[00:13:48] So when they don't have, that part of that intergenerational trauma is ignorance, lack of skill. Some of it is cycles of trauma that we don't understand until we study it.

[00:14:03] And if I'm rejected by my parent, there's this natural process that happens, that primal part of our brain that experiences as a child, what is a life threatening experience. The brain doesn't want us to forget it. So it goes on repeat. It starts to repeat the cycle. And then the brain says, subconsciously, of course, the brain is I'm not going to let it happen like that.

[00:14:32] So if I was sexually traumatized, for example, as a child, then I would my brain, the primal part of my brain subconsciously says, I'm not going to let that happen again like that. So it has two options, either going to be hyposexual and say, I'm just not going to accept. That's how I make sure that I stay away from it. We become asexual. Yes. And then we only engage in sex when necessary to minimally please a partner.

[00:15:01] Or we go to the other route of being hypersexual, where I actively engage in excessive promiscuity, but it's on my terms.

[00:15:11] So these are just one example of an intergenerational trauma cycle that keeps replaying itself until we are able to recognize it, stop it, and then learn an alternative path that can be normalized so that we don't hand that same cycle down to the next generation on accident.

[00:15:37] So intergenerational trauma includes both individual traumas that occur, repeated chronic, like chronic just anxiety, chronic fears, children in the chronic chaos, chronic dysfunctional dynamics within the family, and the lack of these skills.

[00:16:04] So lots of things in that intergenerational trauma. That is huge. What about, and this is big too, what about second generational divorce? My parents were divorced. I'm divorced. That's some trauma. How do you unpack that? What's a good way to unpack that? Wow. Okay.

[00:16:26] And look, I would, in general, I would say that's the type of thing that when we go to a therapist who is good at family systems, family concepts, family roles, family dysfunction. After a divorce, we can go there and look for these clues as to why I fell apart. What are the cycles that are repeating?

[00:16:52] Whether it has to do with core beliefs or skills deficits and things like that. So after the divorce and okay, wow, I'm repeating this trauma. It's a generational trauma indeed. After that divorce, it's a fantastic time to do some detective work and try to figure it out. So I'll just, I'll go ahead and talk about my book. That's what I'm most familiar with. I have these 20 rules in the book.

[00:17:21] It's called, This is How We Heal from Painful Childhoods. A Practical Guide for Past Intergenerational Stress and Trauma. That, and I put it in the form of rules because I find that rules, they're short sentences that we can, that are easier to remember. Once we understand the concept, we can just practice applying them on a daily basis. So rule number one, for example, is five or survive, you decide.

[00:17:46] So when we look at this generation of after your specific divorce, and then that's stacked on top of the intergenerational, second generation divorce, we're going to start practicing this picture of what would a thriving relationship look like. I know what that looks like to just sort of surviving it by, but what does a, what does the ideal one look like? And that'll change, but it helps to have a goal line to work towards.

[00:18:17] So that's rule number one. And then basically the next 19 of them are different variables to look at and understand. In other words, these are different concepts that are in those environments and we want to understand them. So we're going to look through like rule number two, who we are in sympathetic is not who we are in parasympathetic. That's our sympathetic nervous system. That's a, that's what our body is basically the survival responses of fight, flight, freeze or form.

[00:18:45] So we learn when we listen about that system, we understand when I'm in survival mode, when my partner did something that got me into survival mode, or I did something that got them into survival mode. So how did that play out for us? How did we resolve that? How do I self soothe? How do I not be the angry me versus the calm and creative me? How do I be the best father?

[00:19:10] Do I do that from a point of anger or from fear or do that from a point of calm and soothing and creativity? So we go like rule by rule, concept by concept. We educate ourselves about what did go wrong. And we're looking for the clues, what went wrong in mind.

[00:19:36] And we can look at our parents divorce and be able to identify rule number six. That's control is good, especially good control. It speaks to this concept that when a child experiences chaos and unhealthy dynamics as a child, there it's out of control. They feel danger. So of course, they struggle for ways to exercise control.

[00:20:01] There's often unhealthy means of control, forming alliances, unhealthy alliances, being overly aggressive or being very submissive. So they do these things to try to survive that environment and find these bad control mechanisms. So we can look at our parents and say, how did they try to control each other in that? In the relationship that ended in a divorce.

[00:20:27] And how did I try to control myself and control others in my divorce, that my relationship that ended in divorce. And once we can isolate and say, oh, see, or he was controlling me in this way. And I was trying to control him this way. And those are unhealthy ways of trying to control each other. Through manipulation, passive aggressive stuff, or overtly aggressive, what have you. And then we got, that's a clue.

[00:20:54] And once we had that clue, now it's on us to change that. How do I exercise good control in a relationship? We do that by self-advocacy and negotiation skills, conflict resolution and a lot of communication skills. And then we move on. What's the next thing?

[00:21:19] When we end up in divorce, if there's kids involved and then it leads into that co-parenting thing that was from that prior generation. Your parents divorced. They struggled with that co-parenting and that led to the repeat of this situation. Gotcha. Okay. Well, let's see. Rule number 15, for example, called center of the universe is not a compliment. Okay.

[00:21:49] And this is in any really dysfunctional family environment, we typically see a center of the universe. It's somebody who has the best, the most powerful bad control mechanisms. They get everyone around them to orbit them. So whoever is the most powerful, the most manipulative, or the most violent, or the wealthy, whoever, it's constantly everybody caters to. Sometimes it's the biggest victim. Somebody who's really good at playing the victim role.

[00:22:18] So whoever is that center of the universe that has everybody else jumping through hoops, when we identify that process, we can see that who is that in the parents and who is that in the body, in ours. That starts that, like a detective, there's a clue. And what's the alternative to that? Instead of the center of the universe family model where everyone orbits around the most powerful person,

[00:22:47] we want to have this other, what's the other idea? What's the other better way to do it? And in that rule, we talk about the ideal family diagram, the ideal family dynamic, in which husband and wife, or whatever the two partners are, become this team. And that's the primary focus on that team. And they function together as partners to create rules and regulations.

[00:23:15] A lot of the alliances, it shifts a lot of the roles. Interesting. Yeah. So these 20 rules are 20 concepts that we can go in, see what went wrong, test it out, see what areas we need to focus on. Make those changes before jumping into another relationship. That's true. If we jump into another relationship, what has changed? What have we changed? Happens.

[00:23:43] Yeah, there's a strong tendency for us to point the finger at the other person to say, that person was crazy and they're terrible. And they were at fault. And that's why everything fell apart. So I just need to find somebody who's better than that. Let's see what that rule number 11. We're responsible for the decisions that we're aware of. Because you know. That gets to this concept of, yeah, number one, you informed me about something. Now I'm aware of it. Now I'm responsible for that.

[00:24:11] It also gets to this concept of the more stuff that I choose to become responsible for, the more the control of the future is in mind. So if I just point my finger over there at the bad one, that's the one that was all crazy and created this whole problem, I'm fine. Now I'm looking for some other person who's going to make everything okay in the future. And then saying he needs. Yeah.

[00:24:36] And which leaves me vulnerable to me repeating the same stuff that my parents did. And that I set up in that second generation divorce. Instead, when I said, what am I responding? Let me look at that past. What was I doing to make this thing fail? Even to the extent, even working with the victims of 30 years of domestic violence. Victim of it.

[00:25:06] What was I doing? Not to deserve that. That's not the question at all. Of course you didn't deserve it. What were the things, what were the dynamics and things that were set up? What were the cycles that you were repeating? Otherwise, you're just going to get a new one. What am I responsible for?

[00:25:28] I'm responsible to learn how to self-love and to see myself as someone worthy of a higher quality relationship. If I don't self-love, then I will be vulnerable to accepting somebody who does not respect and love me. So that's my responsibility. That other person can't teach me that. They can love me all they want. But if I don't self-love properly, then they say, oh, I love you. And in my subconscious, I don't believe you because I'm not lovable.

[00:25:58] That's a core belief from childhood. So I have to be responsible for a lot of the change, a lot of the success. Yeah. What about men? We suck at self-care. Why? Why do we suck? Absolutely indeed. Oh, man. We suck. Absolutely. I think it's a big part of, again, coming from South Louisiana, it's a very kind of macho thing.

[00:26:27] And it's just the coolest perception in my mind was these Chuck Norris Rambo types. It was so tough and they'd sacrifice themselves for others and in a very manly fashion and work their fingers to the bone. And that was awesome. That's cool. That's what's tough. And it's just a crude way of looking at it. It's unrefined. It's immature. It's an amateur way of looking at it. It's in the martial arts realm.

[00:26:55] It's this concept of, oh man, just don't tap. That's super cool. And they break your arm and then it's okay. That's so cool. It's so tough. To an amateur, that is the tough part is that hard, the hard headed part, the part that I will not give up. And that's, that is a strength. But then you play that out and now I have to recover for a year from that. And now I'm not going to be there for my family and for my training for the next year.

[00:27:23] I destroyed, I destroyed a lot of my joints from just working too hard and being terrible at self-care. I've had like five joint surgeries to repair the damage I did from too much exercise. I had to learn in my 30s, in my late 30s and 40s, self-care by necessity. Otherwise we just have to stop doing it. It's like, all right, let me slow down.

[00:27:54] Rule number four, by the way, is we must slow down to speed up. In order to be the best martial artist, I had to slow down and learn recovery and self-repair. Come to find out there's thousands of years of practice. The Chinese practitioners were of martial arts were also the healers. Like they understood a great deal about healing the body.

[00:28:19] They wanted to know what shuts the body down and what heals it because they had to be able to train. And not be damaged and heal themselves so that they could be as powerful as possible. They had to understand healing cycles. So really the most manly advanced thing is someone who is excellent at self-care.

[00:28:41] And not working themselves to the bone, but in working the appropriate amount and then healing the appropriate amount so that they are the most energized, creative and in great shape. To handle their work, to handle their work, to handle their family, to handle the struggles. So to me, it's a little bit of a kind of amateur beginner view of it. Oh, that's super tough. That's bad of bone. Let's approach the concept of self-parenting.

[00:29:08] Versus a more mature, informed, wistful understanding that really great self-care. We can learn a lot from our female counterparts about nurturing emotions and positive self-care. And not making it this, oh that's weak or whatever. That's so silly. Let's broach, since we ended it here Let's broach the concept

[00:29:36] Of co-parenting, we talked about that Before in the pre-interview How about my parents are having A tough time with their co-parents What words Can you convey to them? On the one hand, it's a very Demoralizing bit of acceptance Like rule number 19 is not a contest Some is just bad and Sad The part of understanding that trauma is bad It just breaks things down And it is sad

[00:30:05] The predominant emotion that runs Throughout the years of me working with So much trauma from people Is the sadness of it So we could There is a point where we pause for a moment and Accept That there is sadness there That is Awful and it's unfortunate When you know that your child is going over To a toxic environment You know that Especially when that other parent Gets into another It's in an even worse relationship

[00:30:35] Your child is going over there And it's just shy of illegal So you can't do anything about it That is Sadness And we have to accept The sad aspect of it Then the hopeful part Is I find in the research that shows What we call situation specific learning Let's say a young child For example Goes from one environment To the other And they learn how to function In both environments

[00:31:04] They go into the overindulgent dynamics They know they have to cry a bunch And then they get everything they want And then they come into the healthy environment And they get what they want By following structured rules And by excelling And by being respectful To others and themselves They learn how to behave In this environment And they learn how to behave That is the best thing we can do Is to focus on our environment Keeping our house clean Doing our rules

[00:31:33] Making sure the child learns How to function In this healthy environment And when we do that successfully Then as the child becomes Teenage And then 18 They increasingly get to choose Which environment feels safer to them And which environment Do they gravitate towards Unfortunately Sometimes they gravitate toward the other But often times They gravitate toward the one That makes them feel safer And that's the more

[00:32:03] Positive structured environment And too They're learning these skills That at some point in their future They decide to turn them on And go down that path They have at least learned those skills That you taught them In that environment So that is one thing That I'll offer Learning in which You can't That child will You can teach your kid These Absolute life-saving And relationship Thriving skills And then the other is We can work

[00:32:32] Very specifically On our own Conflict resolution skills And recognizing Our own limitations When I If I have tremendous Resentment And aggression Towards my ex Was my former Partner I have to do the work On myself Of practicing Self-soothing So that my That person Does not draw me Into a Maintaining a toxic And relationship Of anger And aggression

[00:33:01] I have to I have to Self-soothe myself And get my head Straight And then practice Very specific Conversational Dynamics Talk about We have a Communication sheet And differentiate Between It's very specific Skills Tools Where we go Through I'm not Going to Share My personal Emotions And intimate Thoughts With that Person If they are Toxing Or they're Not going To be Able to Use that Information In a Healthy Way They're Going to Use that As ammunition I'm not Going to Do that What am I Going to Do instead

[00:33:31] Make a Positive Statement Of our Relationship My goal Is for us To be the Best For our Kids And these Are the Specific Things That I'm Willing To do And get From The other Person So Like Chris Foss The hostage Negotiator He has some Great work On hostage Negotiations That really Apply well To Co-parenting With a Toxic X We can Slow down And learn These skills

[00:34:01] So that not Only are we Creating this Healthy Environment For our Kids to Learn In these Critical Skills For themselves But every Time we Interact With that Toxic X We're Doing so In an Increasingly Healthy Increasingly And that Has to do With not Pointing the Finger And saying That person Is toxic And it's Just out Of my Hands So that Little Personal And You know The child And some Inner Person

[00:34:31] There you Go Man You knocked About the Park That was Pretty good I'm gonna Unpack this And edit it And it's Gonna come Out great Hey let The people Know where To find You on Internet And I'll Have the Your contact Information In the show Notes So let The people Know where You are Outstanding Yeah the Best face Would probably Be a Healfromchildhood.com It's a pretty Cool thing There also Talk about That adverse Childhood Experiences Study You can

[00:35:06] Another clue As to How much Is this An issue For me And a lot Of How much That probably Was contributing To the Damage in that Relationship But yeah Healfromchildhood.com And then also Ernestellenderphd.com Just for more info And yeah about Coaching services That I offer Yeah And my book Of course It's all over Those websites Yeah All right Ernest Hold on the mic But appreciate Your time This morning You're my First one And fast Man I'm fast

[00:35:35] Thank you so much Ah thank you