Turning the 'Sh!t Show' into Success: Co-Parenting Tips for Divorced Dads - Jack Kammer || DPTSP #088 || David M. Webb

[00:00:01] Welcome to Don't Pick the Scab Podcast, which is a great name by the way, where we dive deep into the healing journey for men over 40, navigating the aftermath of divorce. This week we're thrilled to have a special guest, Jack Kammer, who has spent over four decades exploring male gender issues and social dynamics. From launching a radio show on relationships in 1983 to publishing insightful books like Goodwill Toward Men, Jack has been a passionate advocate for understanding the complexities of masculinity.

[00:00:29] Join us as we uncover the stories, challenges and invaluable lessons learned along the way, because sometimes healing starts with a fresh perspective. And we're hoping Jack can give us a fresh perspective. So Jack, tell us a little bit about yourself and we'll go from there.

[00:01:02] Welcome to the Don't Pick the Scab Podcast with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during or after a divorce. Check it out. Okay. First of all, I should say right up front that I am not a divorced father. I am not an undivorced father. I'm not a father at all. I missed that boat.

[00:01:26] Because the model of fatherhood that I saw as I was in my dating years was not so great. When I was a kid, my father was very loving. As we grew older, I had four older siblings and the financial pressures arose. He became not so much fun. And I saw that I didn't want to be that kind of father. But I saw how important fatherhood was because I really missed the father that I had when I was a kid, where he would be really sweet to us.

[00:01:55] When he became an alcoholic, as we got older, I just saw the pressures he was under, mostly financial. And financial pressures coupled with a bunch of kids who really didn't appreciate him. And that's where I saw real up close and personal how important fatherhood was and could be.

[00:02:18] I should mention that along with the radio show that I did that got me interested in male gender issues. I was the executive director of an organization. Some of your old timers might remember from back in the day. It was called the National Congress for Men. Executive director of that. Our motto was preserving the promise of fatherhood.

[00:02:42] Later on, after I got my degree in social work, which I got because I was concerned about the importance of fatherhood and how it was being ignored in our society, I worked for the National Fatherhood Initiative for a year, mainly as a trainer for correctional services around the country of different state correctional services to teach those correctional programs,

[00:03:09] how to run the inside out dad program from national from national fatherhood initiative to help incarcerated fathers maintain their relationships with their kids and to have a relationship to go back to once they got released. So that's a quick story of me and my fatherhood connections. So you've got some questions for me. I do. I'm interested to know about the term don't pick the scab.

[00:03:37] And I wonder if that was a phrase that you used in your facilitation groups. Actually, it was not. I was when I have the other podcast, the divorce level podcast, and I wanted to reach out, like I told you, to men over 40 that were struggling with divorce recovery. And I said, what is a good analogy that men do?

[00:04:02] And men, boys always pick the scab before it's totally healed. So men pick that scab with co-parenting, with anger issues, with recovery from emotional complexities. They always, you know, they get to this point and they'll just crash and then it bleeds again. So you're back to the beginning. So that's how that happened. Okay.

[00:04:26] And then the next question was, what are some of the main ways, the worst ways, men picking the scabs of their divorces? That's a good question, too. So one of the biggest things that they do that drives me nuts, a lot of men cannot let go of not trying to control what happens at the ex's house. So I tell them, I say, hey, you be the best father you could be when you have them.

[00:04:55] If it's 50 percent, 20 percent, your job is to be the best father you can be while you have them and not worry about what happens at the ex's house. But some of those guys can't let it go. I can let it go at first, but I had to let it go because I tell people the story this one time and the listeners, I read the story that I had my boys. My daughter was in college and we did the 50 50. So Sunday was a change day. So I was taking them back to their mom's Sunday afternoon. So we got in the car, you know, they got their back back, backpacks and everything.

[00:05:25] But they have a black trash bag full of stuff. So I asked him, I said, guys, what's in the trash bag? And I said nothing. So I grabbed the trash bag and there's like 40 rolls of toilet paper. And so I'd say, hey, what's it? Well, mommy said you can afford it. So she told us to go ahead and take it. So I said, hey, guys, this is stealing. We need to refigure this and think this out a little bit. So I called her. I said, hey, don't you know, the two households run independently. Don't do this. So I had to deal with crap like that.

[00:05:54] So that was those were the things, you know, the co-parenting phase. The anger phase was tough, the moving on phase. And then one of my podcasters talked about the jack-in-the-box dad, where the week that you have the kid, you're out of the jack-in-the-box, you go. And then when the kids leave, you're back on the jack-in-the-box, you put the top down. So that's so you're supposed to keep living, even though the kids are not there that week. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:21] On the issue of men having difficulty letting go of controlling what's happening at the ex's house, were I can imagine at least two reasons that different men would have had for having difficulty with that. One would be that some of the fathers just were control freaks and they wanted to run the show. They knew best about everything. So that would be one that would occur.

[00:06:48] What about the other possibility that the men were upset about what was going on at the ex's house because they really didn't like what their kids were being exposed to at the ex's house? Did that also occur? I think so. But eventually you have to let it go or else it's going to eat you up inside. Because when you don't have control, unless you have those stringent rules, which I've seen where people, where they actually put it into the divorce decree, you know, the kid to go to bed by this time.

[00:07:19] But that's like too much control. And I think my kids survive better having two separate and unequal houses and then trying to control what happens at that house and this house. Because I remember too, when I was moving to a different house, I was renting a house. She wanted to come over and check it out and make sure that it was up to standards for her kids to stay there. I said, oh, hell no. No, this is my world. Yeah. So stuff like that. Yeah. Oh, okay.

[00:07:47] We've talked a bit about the anger that the men feel. And I want to mention to you that when I was executive director of the National Congress for Men, we held a convention. I think it was in Denver this year that I'm going to tell you about where we had a workshop facilitated by a wonderful fellow named Gordon Clay. I'm sure you never heard of him, but he was quite something.

[00:08:11] I asked him to facilitate a workshop at the conference that I was organizing that would help the men who were attending to put down their anger for a minute and to try to feel what they

[00:08:37] were really feeling before they felt angry. Do you know, it's often said that anger is a secondary emotion. Correct. And anger is the emotion that men are very good at expressing because it's so quote unquote manly. It's the emotion where it's the unhappy emotion. It's okay for us to express, but there are other emotions, unhappy emotions that we feel that we don't feel is okay for us to express.

[00:09:07] So we can't express those real emotions. We have to quick jump to the one that we're allowed to express, which is anger. So Gordon started running this workshop with all these angry men, angry fathers. Oh yeah. But within three minutes, I don't know how he did it. Probably wasn't three minutes, probably a little longer.

[00:09:31] But within a very short time, he had these angry men who were talking about changing this law and this goddamn judge and that bitch of an ex-wife I have. All of this anger that they were so used to expressing. And he had them honest to God crying because they were feeling what they were really feeling behind the anger.

[00:10:00] So I would like to know, would you consider touching your anger in a real way? I'm sorry. Would you consider touching your sadness or your other truly unhappy emotions? Would you consider that in your facilitation process to be picking the scab? I think it probably can. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:25] So when a man is feeling really sad and really hurt and really depressed about not being with his kids like he thought he was going to be with them, and he doesn't have the kind of parenting relationship with his wife that he thought he was going to have, what do you tell men to do with that? Those real but really unhappy emotions. It's almost like you have to incorporate a new reality.

[00:10:55] So your new reality sets the tone in order for you to get past that anger. Because your new reality is that you see your kids once every two weeks. You see them 50% of the time. You get up and no one's next to you. So your new reality kind of sets that tone and allows you to move on from there. For me, it was always looking forward, not looking back. Because once you look back, that's when the anger kind of builds.

[00:11:23] But for me, moving forward, I was able to tail with that anger and then keep it moving forward in a positive way. So it sounds kind of like you work with your men to get them to accept the fact that they are always going to be sad about this aspect of their lives. I think the sadness wears off. That's a good question. Damn it. I don't think I get them to keep thinking about the sadness.

[00:11:53] I think it's more you look toward the positivity and the sadness kind of wears away. Okay. Or the rough edges around the anger at least wear away. Yeah. It sounds a little bit like grief counseling. Is there any relationship to what you learn to do and what you know about grief counseling? Yeah. So a divorce is a death.

[00:12:23] But a friend of mine says, yeah, but it's the death that keeps giving because you keep getting reminded of that death. So you see her at PTA meetings or you see her at basketball practice or soccer practice. So you keep being reminded of that death where the seven stages or 12 stages of death that keep coming up. But eventually over time and time is the factor.

[00:12:47] Time is the healer of all that you get used to that death and it becomes less and less important. You talked about how your co-parenting situation was. You mentioned two words, both of which began with an S. I don't know if I can say them on your show or not. No, you can't say shit show. No. Okay. You can. I'm glad you did.

[00:13:14] Your co-parenting situation was that. What do you experience generally among your men who have co-parenting relationships? Do you find that it's often an S. I would say over 50% is a shit show. And I applaud those two parents that can get along. And it's, it's very, I wouldn't say rare, but I applaud the two parents that can co-parent in a positive way.

[00:13:44] But usually it's over 50%. Most of them, because that anger translates to the kids. It translates to the situation and either, and it only takes one parent to make a shit show. So, yeah. Yes. So the reason I'm interested in this is because I am a big proponent of the idea of states establishing rebuttable presumptions for shared parenting in the event of divorce.

[00:14:14] What is that? What is that? Okay. Let's break that down a little bit. A rebuttable presumption is a, it's a term of law. Now, you're very familiar, no doubt, with one form of rebuttable presumption that is very big in American law. That is in criminal cases, you're innocent. If you're the defendant, you're innocent until you're proven guilty.

[00:14:39] You are presumed to be innocent unless the prosecutor can prove you guilty. That's the rebuttable presumption. The presumption is you're innocent, but it's rebuttable by the prosecutor's evidence. The prosecutor tries to rebut that presumption and say, yeah, that's how we start. But ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we start with him being innocent, but wait until I lay out my evidence here.

[00:15:09] And once I lay out this evidence, you can throw that presumption of innocence out because I'm going to prove guilt. That's a rebuttable presumption. And it's a very cherished part of American jurisprudence. If somebody wants to lock you up, they don't get to do it just because they want to lock you up. If they want to lock you up, they got some work to do. Okay. They got to prove that you deserve to be locked up.

[00:15:38] So the science, the social sciences seem to be clear that divorce is not good for kids. But if divorce is going to happen, the best way to proceed with parenting relationships after divorce is you start with a rebuttable presumption that both parents are good.

[00:16:08] Both parents love their kids and the kids love both parents. That's what you start with. And so the kids need a relationship with the mom. The kids need a relationship with the dad. That's what you start with. And if somebody wants to say, oh, I want to lock up that guy because he's no good. They got some work to do. They got to prove it. They got to prove it.

[00:16:32] And in some states, I think there's three right now that are rated with a grade of A for the quality of their domestic relations laws after divorce. There's an organization called the National Parents Organization. Their website is sharedparenting.org. And they show a map of all of the states.

[00:16:57] And only three of them have A ratings for their shared parenting laws or for their divorce laws. I think that's the best way to go. A rebuttable presumption for shared parenting. There are certainly some fathers who are no good. There are certainly some mothers who are no good, actually harmful to their kids, fathers too. But starting with the rebuttable presumption for shared parenting is something that I like a lot.

[00:17:28] And I like believing and hearing, as I have heard frequently from parents who have shared parenting, that it works. It works. And I would like to know what kinds of experiences you hear that cause you to believe that at least half the time it's a shit show. Yeah. I'm not saying co-parenting is a shit show. I said my co-parenting was a shit show. Okay.

[00:17:58] Like little darts, little dabs, things like that. But I would never change what happened. I still think that 50-50 should be the standard. Oh, okay. Well, I talk to you on podcasts, think that the standard should be 50-50. Unless, like you said, someone proves something like drugs or abuse or something like that. But yeah, it should be 50-50. Oh, yeah. That was my thing. But those little barbs and darts and craziness.

[00:18:28] But we survived. And my kids turned out okay. And I would never change the terms 50-50. Oh, yeah. Okay, good. I was worried that you had a lot of bad experiences with shared parenting. And that would have worried me. Yeah. Most of the guys I talk to are in the 50-50. Most states are going toward a 50-50 now. I remember back in the day, the Kramer versus Kramer. Every weekend. And that was crap. That was interesting.

[00:18:57] You might not be old enough to remember this because you look so young. Yeah, there you go. There you go. I remember back in the day, and this was not the good old day.

[00:19:11] But back in the day, I remember that fathers who really loved their kids, which was practically all of them, at the time of divorce, were often told by their lawyers, the best thing you can do for your kids, if you love them, is to walk away. Wow. Do not. Yeah.

[00:19:38] Do not put them through a custody battle. And so all of the power went to the mother because she was one who was going to be presumed to be in the, quote, best interest of the children. Because what do men know about raising kids? So that was standard of care? Yes, that was pretty. That was very much a part of the culture. Wow. Yeah.

[00:20:07] It's really a recent development that social science has actually looked at the value that fathers provide for their kids. You must be younger than I thought you were. Because it's a relatively new phenomenon that people are saying, wow, what a big mistake that was to act like fathers were not important. I actually would, I don't know. I guess I can't.

[00:20:33] I do a clip from a professor at the Yale Child Study Center who basically excoriates the social services for not getting serious about making sure that fathers are fully respected as resources for their kids. He enumerates a lot.

[00:20:59] He enumerates a lot of problems that have been proven to be much less of a problem for children of divorce or children whose parents were never married in the first case. Drug and alcohol abuse. Mental health issue. Underachievement in school. You know, this was sort of new information.

[00:21:20] Our history, our tradition of fatherhood was back before the Industrial Revolution, that kids grew up either on a farm or upstairs from a shop if they were living in the city. You know, the dad was around a lot on the farm. The dad was right there. If there was a shop, the dad was right there. The kid might have worked with the dad in the shop.

[00:21:47] But when the Industrial Revolution came and men started going to these places called factories, that's when the dad started being less present in the kids' lives. And rather than say, ooh, this isn't good with the father's influence leaving the family circle and leaving the kids without the steady influence of their fathers. Instead of saying, ooh, that's not good.

[00:22:15] What we did was just make it okay by coming up with this fiction of, well, dads aren't even important anyhow. Dads aren't important. It's okay. Don't worry about it. That's craziness. And we're catching up with that. And that's a good thing. A very good thing. Also, maybe you can comment on this.

[00:22:36] What I see in my work is a very strong backlash against fathers becoming more and more involved. Not among all mothers. It hardly ever occurs when there is a mother who has a career that she really likes. Yeah. Because imagine a woman who is a good businesswoman. And she's working in a corporation and she's doing really well.

[00:23:04] And she's got it in her mind that she's going to be the CEO of this company one day because she's got what it takes and she wants to do it. But she knows that's going to take a lot of work. A lot of hours. A lot of hours. And she also has kids at home and she loves them and cares about them and wants them to be safe. And she spends a lot of time at work. Yes. Worrying about the kids. Finding good, safe daycare.

[00:23:29] Knowing that the daycare workers really care about their kids and will actually take care of them. Those kinds of women are very happy to see men say, I would love to be the father full time or nearly full time because that appeals to my personality. You want to be a lawyer or a CEO and deal with all that stuff? Great. Go for it. I don't want that.

[00:23:59] I want to be with my kids. I want to be a father. I was a coach once and I really enjoyed being a coach. And I think that a father is a lot like a coach. That kind of thing. So those kinds of women really are happy when they can find a man who is not worried about not being quote unquote manly and not being the quote unquote the provider.

[00:24:25] But is happy fulfilling the role of being the primary nurturer at home. So how do men handle that backlash? So let me talk to you about where I'm seeing the backlash happening. Okay. So it's women who have really fulfilling careers who hardly ever say they don't want the man to be fully involved parent.

[00:24:53] Where you see women not being so happy about the man being a fully involved parent is where the woman does not have a fulfilling career. A lot of women just have jobs. Nine to five. They're always watching the clock. They want to get home. Why do they want to get home? Because home is where the heart is. Home is where the love is.

[00:25:22] Home is where the warmth is. The friendship. The compassion. The relationships. They want to get home. Now, some women will honestly tell you if their girlfriends aren't around. But some women will honestly tell you. And I've had women tell me for a book that I wrote and for articles I've written that they will say. Oh, and Betty Friedan. You ever heard of Betty Friedan? Okay. You ever heard of the book The Feminine Mystique? Yes. Okay.

[00:25:51] She wrote that book in 1963. It's the book that is largely credited with sparking the modern women's movement, which resulted in lots of women saying, I love my kids. I like being a mother. I just don't want to do it 24-7, 365. And so I want to go out here and try to be the CEO. She sparked a lot of that.

[00:26:16] She also went on to become a co-founder and the first president of the National Organization for Women. So even though in this book she was talking about the problems women were facing with being limited to a narrow role, she also recognized that some women really loved that narrow role.

[00:26:41] And she mentioned in her book, quite candidly, that she has friends who say, I would never let my husband take my Billy, my little boy Billy, to the doctor. That's my thing. That's my thing. You hear the phrase sometimes, I'm the mother.

[00:27:03] I'm the mother, which is like what you used to hear back before Betty Friedan wrote her book from men who were big deals in corporations who would say, I'm the man. I'm the provider. I'm the one who needs to make the money. So it was more definite gender roles. Yes, definitely. Definitely. And Betty Friedan's book said, look, we don't have to be all this or all this.

[00:27:32] With men being all of this out there making money and women being all this in the home taking care of the domestic duties. Women said, we want half of what you guys got. They never asked. They never, ever asked. What would you guys like?

[00:27:58] And so when they turned around and said, you know why we're not equal over here in the world of corporations and business? It's because men are our oppressors. Our oppression is total. They made enemies out of us. They made enemies out of us. So they never had to ask. They could easily justify not asking, guys, look, we're trying to get rid of sexism here.

[00:28:27] How does sexism affect you? And even back in the 60s, there were plenty of men who would have said, well, I don't really feel like I know my kids well enough. Today, more and more men are saying, I want to be closer to my kids. You want to have family life and a business life? So do I.

[00:28:54] But when men were the only ones in business and women were at home, there was no phrase work-life balance. That wasn't even a phrase. It was only when women tried to bridge the divide between the two that the phrase work-life balance was coined.

[00:29:18] Men never thought about saying, I want work-life balance and I want to have equality at home. That was never asked. It was never an option for men. We never pursued it. It's really shocking that in this era when we are supposed to be trying to include everyone in our decision making and valuing everyone as a stakeholder in the decision that's made, it's really shocking that men were never asked,

[00:29:47] what would gender equality look like to you? All right. So back to the backlash. The backlash, baby. Back to the backlash. There are lots of women who do not have fabulous careers. Lots of women who just have jobs, who are watching the clock, want to get home. Where you really see the backlash is where there are women who don't even have jobs.

[00:30:17] Except their job, in their mind, is to be the mother. Now, just as there were men back in the 50s and 60s who didn't want women taking any of the really nice jobs,

[00:30:39] the same is true today where there are a lot of women who don't want men taking any share of their really nice job. Women who are just mothers can very often be heavily invested with their identity as I'm the mother. And in her mind, what that means is I'm the one who loves the kids. I'm the one who knows best.

[00:31:09] They need me. They don't need you. You're a man. What do you know? And so there is a lot of backlash by women who really don't want men to be equals in parenting. And so they have things like false allegations of domestic violence. They will often be involved in parental alienation. And so if there's a divorce, all she has to do is say to the judge, Your Honor, the kids really don't want to be with him.

[00:31:37] Listen, tell the nice judge, Susie, about who you want to be with. Well, thank God, these are gone. No, they are not gone. They are not gone. They are not gone, David. They might be on their way out, maybe, in some states. But there is a concerted effort from big feminist organizations, primarily connected with the domestic violence industry,

[00:32:05] to make it so that if a woman says she doesn't want shared parenting, that's enough to rebut the presumption for shared parenting. Now, you know what movie kind of bucks that system back in the 80s? Mr. Mom. Remember Mr. Mom, the Michael Keaton? Yep. That guy was my hero. Yeah. He lost his job. He came in. He did the best he could. And he survived.

[00:32:36] And there was another good movie more recently with Will Smith. Did you see that one? Which one's that one? I think it was called The Pursuit of Happiness. The word happiness with a Y instead of an I was in the title. So Will Smith was also portrayed a heroic father. And I believe that, too, was based on a true story. Yes. Those movies were hit movies because they were movies. They were not what we have.

[00:33:05] They were what people would like, but not what we have. But we can get there, I think. I think we have hope, Jack. Yes. I do have hope. But, David, it ain't going to happen because we hope for it. It's not going to happen because we hope for it. Because... I have a question for you. Hold on. I have a question for you. Go ahead. So I always talk about the chicken and the egg as in terms of counseling.

[00:33:35] So no one has probably asked you this one. So when I first started this, I said, how can a drug and alcohol counselor be a good counselor if he's never taken drugs or drank alcohol? Okay. That's something that I struggled with at the beginning. But after talking to people like you and others, there's some divorce counselors and there have been divorce that are great counselors. I realized that.

[00:34:02] But there's some men out there who don't feel the same way I do speak to that. Well, so are you referring to the fact that I'm not a father? Yes. Yes. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. But I think experience really sets the tone. Yes. And I do have a fair amount of experience talking with men who have been through these things.

[00:34:24] And in a way, it's an advantage for me because I cannot be dismissed as so many of the backlash people want to dismiss people who advocate for changes in divorce laws and for honoring fatherhood. I can't be dismissed as an angry father. No. No. I am a retired social worker.

[00:34:50] And I see how the way fatherhood is treated in our social policies is a social problem. It's not a personal problem for me. It's a social problem for everybody. Gotcha. Take a look at how many fatherless men are in jail, for instance. That's not a personal problem. That is a societal problem.

[00:35:17] And think of how much money the government spends locking people up who could have avoided being locked up and having their lives ruined if their fathers had gotten some support that they need or they needed when times were tough. Look, we hear a lot about responsible fatherhood.

[00:35:43] And the idea seems to be that if there's no father in the household, he's a bum and he abandoned the kids. Maybe. But we also got to recognize that a lot of times, especially marginalized fathers, lose their jobs, got no money, got no prospects for a job, especially if the economy is bad.

[00:36:13] Who needs them? Who needs them? Fathers aren't really good for emotional purposes, nurturing purposes. Fathers are providers. If he's not providing money, hit the road, Jack. I don't need you. If fathers like that were supported, were recognized, if we could get the word to mothers in a way that they would really embrace,

[00:36:43] that although they might have difficulty accepting this at first, the father is, or at least with some support very well could be as good for your kids as you are. The father could be as good as you are.

[00:37:05] If women would accept that, believe that, observe and notice how important father-child relationships are to their kids, they would be less likely to say, okay, you're not making any money, but I love you anyhow. The kids love you anyhow. You love the kids anyhow. And so we're going to get through this. And then when he feels like he's loved for more than his money,

[00:37:33] he's more motivated to go out and find a way to make some money legally. But the pressure that men are under these days were, look, we use the S word, right? So I'm going to use it again. I live and work in Baltimore. I was a parole and probation agent in Baltimore. I had a lot of my fellas, my ex-offenders, my clients in the parole and probation office tell me, because I would ask them, I would say,

[00:38:02] I've heard that it's pretty rough to be a man in Baltimore these days, especially one who's marginalized, doesn't have a job or a good education. Have you ever heard black men ain't shit? And the response I always got was, oh yeah, all the time, all the time. I said, how'd that make you feel? They said, got two answers.

[00:38:32] One is, man, it made me feel terrible. Maybe I had some of these guys crying in my office. Guys were big, tough guys who had done bad things crying in my office. Other guys would say, just made me want to prove them wrong. Often though, how does a marginalized man in an urban center where there are not really such great jobs, how does he become not shit by making a lot of money?

[00:39:02] How do you make a lot of money? You're back in the system. Exactly. Risking your life, poisoning your community, and very likely going back to jail. So this is not a personal problem for me. It's not a personal issue for me. I do feel some sadness that my father became an alcoholic, and I missed a lot by not having him there, helping me figure out how to grow up. But it's not a personal problem for me.

[00:39:31] And we shouldn't really view this as a personal problem in the first place. It's really a social problem that I would love to see organizations like yours getting involved in. You know, it really might help men feel better if they felt like they were contributing in some way to solving this problem and knowing that there's less likelihood that their sons are going to face this problem,

[00:40:01] their grandsons, other kids in the neighborhood are going to face this problem. We're making progress. Right now we're not. I say that the backlash is pushing harder than the front lash is. So break the generational bond. I agree. I think so. I hope we do. So what do you say to a person who's going through a shitshell co-parenting process? How do you give them hope? What kind of hope can you give them? Yeah, it really depends a lot on the personality of the mother.

[00:40:31] If the mother is the kind of mother that says, well, I'm the mother, father, which essentially means you're only the father, then you got a real steep hill to climb. If on the other hand, she loved her daddy and a lot of women love their daddies and they love their brothers and they love their uncles. You have some way of connecting you as a father

[00:40:57] to the love she knows that men can provide to their families. So, Panslin, what are you dealing with? What are you dealing with? So what happens if you're in a shit show and there's no connection? Kind of like my situation. And you're solo co-parenting. There we go. Yeah, solo co-parenting. That really is an interesting phrase, but I understand exactly what you mean.

[00:41:24] A suggestion I would make is that you leave little pamphlets, little brochures, little slides, explaining to mothers how important fathers are to their kids. And you don't go to her and say, oh, honey, please treat me better. No, it's not about you. And it's not about your relationship with her and her relationship with you.

[00:41:54] It's about her love for the kids. And baby, if you love these kids, you will read this brochure and you will see, scientifically proven over 30 years, that fathers are important for kids. And these kids need me, even though you might think I'm the devil, these kids need me. So read this and let's see if we can't work it out

[00:42:21] so that you can be the mom and I can be the dad and we can both be good for the kids. And if you can't? Well, if you can't, then what are your options? And what's her objection? If you have any money, you could take her to court. Often a divorce decrees can be modified if there are substantial changes in the situation. And if you could go to court and demonstrate, your honor, this is not working. The substantial change is that my wife

[00:42:50] is putting me through a shit show, putting the kids through a shit show. I would like in the best interest of these children to have sole custody because you can count on me to end the shit show. And I will make sure that the wife has a relationship with the kids, even though she did everything she could to keep me from having a relationship with the kids. That's a possibility. Wow. It's a possibility.

[00:43:20] And I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. Yep. There you go. Disclaimer. Yeah. All right, Jack. We are 46 minutes in. My men have an attention span of 30. Let's hope we eat that a little additional. Oh my God. Oh yeah. Man, I appreciate you. We definitely got to... Man, I got like 20, 30 questions. I got through two. That's okay. We got to come back and do this again. This was fun. You are one passionate guy.

[00:43:50] Oh my God. Your passion is not on your sleeve. And I respect that. All right, Jack. Let the people out there know where to find you on the internet. Well, it's MailFriendly Media. You can maybe see... Yeah, you can see that right there. MailFriendlyMedia.com. That's where my stuff is. I have a button on the top menu that says follow. If you give me your email address,

[00:44:16] I'll let you know when I publish something on Substack maybe. I'll let you know when I'm on a podcast. You know, in case you want to keep track of what I'm up to. I've got nothing better to do. On a Friday morning. Yeah. We appreciate your time. Everybody have a good night.