The Sh!t Sandwich in your Divorce Recovery - Andra Davidson || Don’t Pick the Scab Podcast || David M. Webb

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Dump Pick the Scab Podcast, the podcast for divorced men over 40 that provide special guests with certain superpowers in order to assist my men over 40 with their recovery journey. Welcome, Andra Davidson. She's a certified divorce coach that assists people to minimize the negative impact on their divorce and on themselves and their children, which we'll talk about. You can find her on numerous social media posts, divorced websites, and her site Better Than Divorced.

[00:00:29] And she has a great newsletter called Divorce is a Sht Sandwich. So we'll definitely talk about that.

[00:00:48] Welcome to the Don't Pick the Scab Podcast with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during or after a divorce. So tell us a little about yourself and I got some questions for you. Awesome. Thanks for having me, David. It's nice to be here.

[00:01:08] Sure. So I am, as you mentioned, a certified divorce coach and a mediator also just by training. I work with men and women who are anywhere in the process, oftentimes at the beginning, sometimes thinking about divorce, sometimes part of the way through and wanting some more emotional support and guidance. Mm-hmm.

[00:01:39] Yeah.

[00:02:11] Not right out of the gate, but eventually as an opportunity to move into a new phase of life and find that next best version of themselves. So I do that with men and women with children without, and I really love working with them to help them move toward the other side and come out better than before. Yeah, definitely. Can you share your journey into becoming a certified divorce coach? Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure.

[00:02:36] As you might imagine, it was going through my own divorce. I was married for 20 years. I got married young. I don't know how many of your listeners did that, but I got married at 25. And at the time that we got divorced, we have, our twins were almost 15. And it really took me to my knees as it does for so many people who go through this process.

[00:04:03] Right.

[00:04:33] And some people, some marriages can withstand that questioning, right? And come out the other side of it. And maybe that's something that the couple navigates together. And sometimes it is. Yeah. What are some of the common emotional challenges men face during divorce or after divorce and how can they navigate those? Oh, my gosh. Right. How much time do you have? That's a big one.

[00:04:57] So some of the common challenges are like any situation that throws you for a loop that you didn't expect. How do I stay focused? How do I maintain being a co-parent, being present for my kids, getting through the logistics, being present at work? How do I manage all of this at one time?

[00:05:21] I think that's a challenge that many people don't want to admit that they have, right? Is, oh, my gosh, I am overwhelmed. So I would say the overwhelm is one of them. And that ties into the next one that I'm going to say that I think is particularly challenging for men, and that is accessing a healthy support system, acknowledging that they need one and then getting that on board.

[00:05:46] Because a lot of men don't want to necessarily admit that they need that. And yet I find that the men who do ask for that kind of support and recognize the value that it will bring to the process for them, how they can then do those things that we were just talking about, reduce overwhelm by being more present at work, dealing with the logistics, being able to focus on being a good parent if they are.

[00:06:16] Can all be impacted by having a good support system. So I think that's one of the biggest challenges and one of the things that I see the most and that I try to combat the most is helping people recognize that there's no shame, there's no taboo in asking for support during divorce.

[00:06:37] You probably know this, but divorce is listed as the second most challenging life event after losing a loved one. Anybody who was going through such a painful transition, if it was a friend or a family member, I doubt we would say to them, you're being lazy.

[00:06:56] Get out and get up and go do more. That's crazy. But in our own heads, sometimes that's how we talk to ourselves. We should be doing more. We should not need to ask for help. We should be doing better.

[00:07:10] And the reality is everybody needs support during difficult times of their life and asking for it is brave and it's very courageous and it's a really amazing step toward healing and coping in the best way possible. I think you were talking about losing a loved one. I think sometimes it's almost as bad or worse sometimes because you're constantly reminded of that person.

[00:07:37] Coping hard. Right there. How does your better than before divorce program specifically support men in their recovery process? And my second question, which is part of that, is what's the nuances and differences between divorce recovery for men and women? Yeah, I actually, I get asked that question a lot.

[00:07:58] So the better than before divorce program is really an approach to divorce recovery, divorce coping navigation strategy that involves everything from setting goals in the beginning, really looking at your life and your big picture goals, deciding who you want to be after.

[00:08:20] And then that helps you have something to move toward. So a big part of the way that I approach this in strength based, it's looking at other hard things that you may have done in your life and using those skills that got you through that to get you through this.

[00:08:41] So that's an exercise I really love to do. I find that most people, almost everybody, I can't really think of an exception, have been through other hard things in their life. But they may not realize what skills specifically they used to get through it. They may not have given themselves credit for the work that they did to get through that really difficult time.

[00:09:05] So I really like to dig into that and say, what was it that you got through? Was it a huge job transition, loss of a loved one to your point, addiction issues, health issues, relationship issues, so many different challenges that people go through. But they're on the other side of it. How did they do that? What skills did they use? And how might we go back and bring those skills to this situation?

[00:09:29] So that's really the approach that I use for the clients that I work with is strength based, very practical, very hands on day to day. What can we do to make this situation a little bit better today? Focusing on the things that you can control, not on what your ex is doing.

[00:10:20] Focusing on the other side of it. Focusing on the other side of it.

[00:10:51] What can we do to improve ourselves when we've done something that we don't feel as good about? When we'd rather have done something in a different way? Can we then change our approach and say, I'd rather do this differently next time? Yeah, you can. But you have to have the awareness that you want to do it, right? You have to have that awareness. And so I like starting with that awareness. I want to show up.

[00:11:20] How do I want to show up? That's really the question, right? How do I want to show up during this time? How can I be the best version of myself? What does that look like? And I'm not suggesting I'm not being Pollyanna. That's, oh, that's just going to flip a switch. It's going to happen overnight. Everybody's going to be perfect through the process. That's not the case, obviously. But when you have that goal, you start to move toward it more consistently and regularly, and it becomes easier and easier to achieve.

[00:11:46] So you have to start with it in order to make that progress toward it. So my approach is based on that goal of showing up as your best as often as possible, minimizing the conflict so that you can heal, so that you can be the best example for yourself and the people around you, your children, if you have them.

[00:12:12] And that you can transition into who you really want to be long-term in the next phase of your life. Gotcha. A lot of the, one of the transitions that my men have a hard time with is controlling what happens, not being able to control what happens at the ex's house. That is huge for men. And it's one of those control issues. How do you speak to that? Because some of these guys just have a hard time with that, letting that go. Oh my gosh, it's so true.

[00:12:38] I think this is a challenge for people in life consistently all the time. And then you get into a really stressful and emotionally charged environment like divorce, and it's exacerbated, right? It's even more difficult. Control is probably our greatest challenge, recognizing that we cannot control what happens in our ex's house or even in their mind, obviously.

[00:13:08] Anything outside of this, right? So the work to control what you can and let go of what happens there is absolutely essential. And the first thing is by recognizing it. If you're focused on the fact that the kids watch too much TV at the other house, they don't eat vegetables, they go to bed too late, right?

[00:13:36] You're going to make yourself absolutely crazy. There is, because you can't solve that, right? You absolutely can't solve it. The same way, you wouldn't want your ex saying, you can't ever treat the kids to ice cream or they shouldn't stay up late this night. You have to wrap your brain around giving them that same kind of flexibility, and it's not an easy thing to do.

[00:14:04] One of the things that I, there's a great new book out actually right now called Let Them, Nell Robbins' new book. I don't know if you've heard of it. God, about six people the past month have mentioned that book. Is that right? Yes, very popular. Yes, it is right now. And part of the reason is because her approach is very, it's simple, but it's so powerful. It's a simple approach to this exact issue.

[00:14:31] The title is Let Them, and that's the approach here is let, if someone else is going to do something you don't like, you can't control, you have to let them. And then there's a second part of it, which is to let me, which is how do you respond, your own response. It's not just about letting go, and then how do you handle that situation?

[00:14:53] But I highly recommend that book because I think it gives people some very practical, actionable steps to realizing that we cannot, letting go of what we can't control is so freeing for us. As divorcees, parents, humans, honestly, in the world, right? We can't control what anybody else does. We can't control our kids.

[00:15:20] We can't control our spouse, our ex, anybody out there, our boss. So when we acknowledge that, there's a freedom of letting go that is a real gift. And working toward, do I want to be captive to this person's whims? Do I want to be at home obsessing about what my kids are eating?

[00:15:46] If it's vegetables or are they watching a show that they shouldn't watch? Or am I better focusing on who I want to be in the world and doing the best that I can for my kids when they are in my orbit, right? And being the example that I want to be for them. How can I put my energy toward that instead of toward trying to fix something I can't fix?

[00:16:13] So the practical piece of this is putting positive energy and effort, focus on what you can control. If you know that your kids need that improved situation in your house, need a different situation in your house and that you can give it to them, focus on that. Focus on being the best version of a parent that you can be while you have them. Because our kids see it. They see the difference.

[00:16:42] They may act like they like the rule, no rules and all the flexibility and eating Cheetos for dinner. But the truth is most kids crave consistency and reliability and safety. Of course, they're going to say that they want all that leeway, but I'm not always convinced that that is actually the case. Well, I did 50-50 co-parenting and changed on Sunday.

[00:17:09] And it was brutal when they left that Sunday for a week. So I became a jack. Yeah. They're here or they're gone. Yeah. I had to figure that out. And what's interesting is about nine months in, I felt so bad because I could not wait for them to leave. Yeah. You realize? Because you're a single parent for seven days. Yeah. Learn how to navigate those waters.

[00:17:39] That was very interesting. There's a lot of guilt for parents in that, right? Yeah. A lot of guilt. On the one hand, you do feel this sense of relief and that feels good. And then immediately you feel guilty for not wanting to have your kids right there next to you. And I think parents need to give themselves a little bit of grace around that, honestly. Single parenting is hard work. We've been there. It's the hardest job we have.

[00:18:07] It's hard when you have a co-parent who's healthy and that you're productive with, right? Let alone when you're doing it all by yourself. I had a junior high and two high schoolers. I was so busy. Oh, my gosh. You're a chauffeur driver, right? You're a manager. You're a lunch packer. All the things. And to do all that and get through it is something that we should be proud of. And then to be able to say, okay, it's nice. Yeah, I admit.

[00:18:36] It's quiet and peaceful to have a day or two of recovery. I can feel okay saying that. And I can still miss my kids. Those things can all be true at the same time. Like this and this, you know, freaking fries. I think it comes down to one of the things I tell people the most, honestly, David, which is to have grace for yourself through all the different aspects of the process.

[00:19:04] I think that we are very hard on ourselves. We're our most challenging critic, right? So if we can give ourselves a little more grace through all aspects of this, when you are grateful that your kids leave, when you're grateful that they come back, when you're grateful that you're not the only one dealing with something that happens. Maybe something happens at their ex's house and you go, oh my gosh, what a relief. That wasn't me. It's okay.

[00:19:33] We are human beings and we're all doing our best. And when we give ourselves a little more space to just show up as we honestly are and try our best, what I find is that that grace ripples out into the people around us. It shows up in our kids. We give them a little bit more grace too. And it gives us room for growth, right? You're not punishing yourself then.

[00:20:01] You're looking in the mirror and saying, okay, I could do better next time maybe about this or that, but I did the best I could at that moment. And next time I'll try and do better. And we don't need to punish ourselves so much. I hope that people can take that away today, that there's a lot of room for grace and kindness to yourself that you may not be able to extend to yourself yet, but I hope you'll try.

[00:20:28] Let's transfer from grace to self-care. Is it just move over to the right? Yes. Yep. Men suck at self-care. Yes. Why is that? Tell me. We're the guy that's on the plane. The plane's going down. We put the kids' masks on first and then we die because we have no oxygen. Men need to do better, I think, with self-care because they don't realize that if you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of the people. What do you think about that? Oh, 100%.

[00:20:57] I tell my clients this all the time, that you can't take care of your kids and the other people around you. You can't do your best at work, right? You can't be there for other people. If your battery is on zero, right? What recharges you? And that's another way that I ask it and I find that sometimes that helps. What puts you in your best frame of mind? If you were going to go, a lot of men identify with succeeding at work, right?

[00:21:27] That they know how to show up and do their best at work. So a lot of times I translate that into the situation. If you had a big presentation or a big meeting that was really consequential for you in your employment world, would you show up with no sleep? Would you wear your yesterday's clothes and be rumbled and wrinkled? No. You would put your best foot forward, right? It means something to you.

[00:21:54] So showing up as a co-parent, showing up as someone who is navigating a really difficult emotional time requires some thought also. What kind of thought can you give it? What recharges you? Sometimes that's exercise. I always say getting out and doing something to move your body is really valuable.

[00:22:17] Sometimes it's reading, listening to other voices, realizing that you're not alone in this space, connecting with people. That always is valuable. Sometimes it's acknowledging that you need rest, right? Like just recharging. I just was having that conversation this morning with a client who is beating himself up because he's tired. Because he's coming out of this very difficult relationship.

[00:22:46] And I was trying to explain that this is your body saying, this is what I need. You're healing, right? You're healing. You're in recovery. But he's like, it feels lazy. It feels lazy that I'm tired. And that is, to me, an obstacle that I think we can overcome. Self-care is about positioning yourself to do your very best for the people, for yourself and then the people around you.

[00:23:15] You can't do well when you're running on empty. So how do you recharge? How can a man recharge his self-confidence? I say self-confidence is the cousin of self-care, basically. Yeah. You got to have both. But your confidence has just been shattered. You've been through a divorce. Sometimes it's contentious. And how can they recharge that self-confidence?

[00:23:41] I love that question because I think it's such a common challenge in divorce. And people aren't good at acknowledging what the ripple effect is of that lack of confidence, right? How it shows up and how you present yourself, how you act for your kids, how you act for your other people around you. We talked about that exercise in the beginning of figuring out other hard things that you've done before.

[00:24:09] I think this is a really beautiful way to dig into nuggets of confidence also. Because when you go back and look at how did you get through a really difficult time? What did you use to do it?

[00:24:27] A lot of times as we go through that process and they're explaining to me what the hard time was and what they actually did to come out the other side, I'm blown away by their skills and willingness to work so hard and do amazing things for other people. But they don't see it.

[00:25:16] Just start building yourself back up little piece at a time can really be a good start. And the other thing is that I think we're really hard on ourselves. Take the wins. If you had a good day that was better than the day before. Small. Yeah. Take those small wins. Look at that day and say, it's not good enough to me. It's good enough. It's great to say I had a better day today than I did yesterday, right? That's great.

[00:25:44] But the way to elevate that is to take it one step further and say, what made it different? What about today is better than yesterday? What did I do differently? What gift did I maybe receive out there in the universe? Did someone pay me a compliment that I'm willing to take to heart? Was I able to get out of bed earlier and, you know, go work out for the first time in a while? Was I willing to make a phone call that was hard?

[00:26:14] Did I start on some paperwork? Whatever those little things are, right? Take those little wins and realize that you're making progress. That today looks a little bit better than yesterday. Because if you just let that sort of go and you don't take the time to acknowledge that improvement, then it's harder to build on it. But recognizing it gives you the opportunity to use it as a foundation, right? As a brick. How do I then put another one on the bridge, right?

[00:26:42] The bridge over to this new version of me. And I like to use that visual too, actually. Let's talk about your book. Not your book. Your newsletter, Morris. Oh, sure. Let's talk about your newsletter. Divorce is a Shit Channel. How do you tell people about that? How that came about? Part of what I say in the newsletter, the little tagline is because it is, right? It came about because of it is.

[00:27:09] Even in the most amicable of situations. It is still difficult and overwhelming and emotionally depleting. It still feels like you have to eat a shit sandwich to get to the other side. And so I like to joke, okay, we can make this sandwich as big or as small as you want it, right? We can pile on more shit or you can take some of the shit off. But how do you want to eat this sandwich?

[00:27:39] Because you have to eat it. So eating it is part of the process, right? Is getting through to the other side. What you choose to do with it along the way is where you get the control and where you get to make choices that improve it. So I think it works for people because they also realize that adding a little bit of humor in can be very valuable.

[00:28:02] It can give you a little relief, you know, feel a little more manageable, make you realize you're not alone. Other people have been there too. And they, in all likelihood, would describe it the same, right? I assume that you would say that about yours. Oh, definitely. You have to laugh to keep me crying sometimes. Exactly. So where can my people find you on the internet? Because my men, oh yeah, we're at 30 minutes. Perfect. Oh, good. Pretty much. Not bad. Yeah. Love you guys.

[00:28:32] How can my men find you on the internet? And I'll have it in the show notes. Awesome. My website is betterthanbeforedivorce.com and I am on social media as well. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. So wherever you get your social, look me up, look up Better Than Before Divorce and Andra Davidson. And I will pop right up.

[00:28:59] And I have a digital course on the, that we talked about a little bit to help people navigate those emotional challenges. And I'm happy to offer your listeners a discount on that if they would like. And I'll be happy to give you a code to share so they could go onto the website and use that to check out. I always feel like anybody who wants that support should have access to it. And I'm very happy to be able to provide that. And one last question. How do you relax? Oh my gosh.

[00:29:29] I have, I am a big outdoor person here in Colorado where we both are. Exactly. So I love being outside. I have my two dogs and I love to travel and read and be yogi. So those are my favorite things. Here we go. All right, Andra. We want to thank you for taking time with us today. We're definitely going to circle back because I have some more questions. But that was cool though. That was interesting.

[00:29:56] And like I said, the shit sandwich was something. Some salt, pepper, different kinds of things. Exactly. You can put a little seasoning on there, right? Make it a little less miserable to eat it. But you gotta eat it. All right, everybody. Have a good night. Have a good night.