The Conflict Specialist - Stop it Before it Actually Comes / Dr. Bernadette Atanga || DPTSP #083 || David

[00:00:00] Welcome Dr. Bernadette Atanga. She's a physician that specializes in internal medicine and pediatrics. She does have super power, I just found out, is empowering men and families to prevent and manage conflict. Welcome to the show, Dr. Bernadette. Tell us a little bit about yourself and I have some questions for you.

[00:00:16] Welcome to the Don't Pick The SCAB podcast with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during or after a divorce. Check it out.

[00:00:46] Oh, thank you very much, Dr. Webb for having me. I'm so excited. And I thank you for the wonderful work that you're doing with men that are going through this life changing process of divorce, which is not easy. And I say that is really a great mission and a great service you're doing. And for all your listeners, because a lot of times when people are going through that they think, oh, it's just me.

[00:01:10] All I can say is you're not alone. And I can say that because I have worked with a lot of men as a physician. Most of my practice has been 90 percent men. And so that gives me an experience behind closed doors. Because what men bring, they don't just come with their blood pressure, they come with their divorce, their everything emotional.

[00:01:32] And I think I have the other thing that I find is that I like the mental health aspect of my primary care, because a lot of our physical ailments are also tied to our spirit and our mental health and the things that we go through. Why focus on men? Not just because I have experience working with them, both here in the U.S. and internationally.

[00:01:56] I think it's a population that is vulnerable that we have neglected. And I'm talking about all ethnic groups internationally and globally. I think if we think about how men are raised, they are raised with emotional suppression. You can't cry. That makes you look weak. You cannot. If you hurt, you have to tough it up. If you try to cry as a kid, they say, oh, you're not a girl.

[00:02:23] So society makes men or confuse men on how they should express their emotions. And when they are going through crisis, that makes it even more difficult because you're feeling one thing, but you've been taught it's wrong to even process it, let alone express it. And if you do that for a lifetime and we say we come with history. Now we're going to focus on divorce because that's what the show is about.

[00:02:52] But when you experience divorce, that's in your 40s and above as your audience is. Think about all the childhood pain that you have suppressed. Because I wouldn't say neglect because it is there. It comes out in different ways.

[00:03:10] And when you go to the bottom of it, you may even realize how you got to your divorce might be a result of all those negative emotions that were suppressed. And they come out in different ways that are not healthy in your marriage. So I say in the past, we have empowered women. We have empowered children rightfully. But where is the men's empowerment movement?

[00:03:37] We never stepped in to tell them they are changing roles. It starts today. I think you started that already when you started the show. And I think people have been doing that. That's what I tried to do. And actually, I didn't talk of men's empowerment. The program I started was family empowerment because I still, I believe in family. That is the smallest unit of our community. When we have strong families, we have strong communities.

[00:04:07] Unfortunately, not every marriage ends up staying together till that divorce starts. Some have to get a divorce. I think for some people, it's healthy to get a divorce. I am a product. I have been through a divorce. And it was a good thing for me. But I still advocate if people can prevent that and work through things, it might be a better result. Especially when you don't have to deal with all the other things that come with that. So yeah, so that's my story.

[00:04:37] And I love talking about conflict on the side of prevention. Because a lot of conflict is preventable. And when people talk of conflict, they think of crisis. So most often, and I work with corporations as well, people go into crisis management instead of prevention. And a lot of times we can prevent the crisis if we step, we are proactive and do conflict prevention.

[00:05:06] Whether it's in your marriage, whether it's with your kids or at work. I advocate for conflict prevention. And in three stages. The same way we do with diseases. We don't wait. Oh, it's better not to wait until you get sick. You can do the things that you can do to prevent the disease. Now, does that mean if you prevent it, we'll never have conflict? Absolutely not. As long as you have more than one person on earth, we are bound to have conflict. And I think we should be comfortable with that notion.

[00:05:36] I think people are afraid of conflict. We should be comfortable with conflict as a part of life. Just as disease is a part of life. And empower ourselves on how to handle it. First, how to understand it. And to address it in stages. The primary stage of that which you can anticipate. The emotions that you bring in. You prevent. Now, those that blindside you. And you find yourself at the beginning of a conflict. How you handle that.

[00:06:05] I call that the secondary phase. And hopefully we don't get to the tertiary phase. Which is the crisis mode. And in this case, it's divorce. And if you find yourself there. There is still hope. It's like when you have the heart attack. We don't say, oh, you've already had that. You've had the heart attack. We're not going to. There is nothing to be done. No. We're still going to take care of you. There is still life to be led. And we're going to try to provide the, what we call tertiary prevention at that time. And in this case, it's the healing journey. All right, everybody.

[00:06:35] Thanks for listening. Thanks. Thanks for coming, everybody. Thank you. So, in your experience, what are the biggest sources of unresolved conflict for men going through a divorce? And how does your peace method, P-A-C-E, help them prevent or manage these conflicts? So, a lot of times I would meet men in the clinic. So, again, like they come for blood pressure, diabetes.

[00:07:01] And just so I tell men, a lot of times it's uncontrolled because you don't even have the emotional energy to put in your physical health. And a lot of times when you ask what's going on, that face drops and they tell you they're going through a divorce. And nine times out of ten, if not ten over ten, in that private moment behind closed doors, the tears come running down.

[00:07:29] And I let them have that moment because I also believe maybe in their entire life, this is the only time that they felt safe or the only space that they felt this might be the first time. So, I just let that moment be and however long it takes. The first question I would ask is, did you want the divorce? Who initiated the divorce? Because it makes a difference how they heal.

[00:07:59] So, is it a good thing? I mentioned earlier that sometimes a divorce is a good thing. So, if it is something that they wanted, then it's easier. But if it's something that they didn't see it coming and they've invested their life and their time in this. So, they just feel lost when you talk about people who feel lost. Again, so to me, the crucial question at that moment is, was this something you wanted? Because the healing journey is different.

[00:08:28] And understanding, so how did you get here? Because a lot of times what happens is somebody's married. And I feel most compassion for men who've been married like 30, 40 years. And the wife gives them a divorce. And they did not see that coming. Now, what does that tell you? Maybe you've been working so hard to provide for your family. And these are good people.

[00:08:55] But you just didn't pay attention that the house was sick. And how do you heal? What I say is, you start with the truth. First, and the truth is, how do you feel? So, a lot of times what prevents people from healing is they are angry. You talked about it. They are really angry. But what they should be feeling is pain. Because, and I don't say they should feel.

[00:09:25] I shouldn't say that. But what they are actually feeling is pain. Because anger is an easier emotion. One, because it's externalized. You can direct it at somebody. And you can make reasons as to why that person made you angry. That person is making me feel this way. It's their fault. Whereas pain is, I hurt. And anger is associated with strength.

[00:09:51] Because you can, if you're stronger and you're angry, you can be fierce. You can dominate. Pain is associated with weakness. What direction do you think we've thought men to go towards anger? Every time. Whereas, what I tell people is, the breath of emotions that you're going through. No differently than if you lost somebody by death. You feel there is the loss of your marriage. There is the loss of your status.

[00:10:18] Maybe your whole image was tied in the image of you having a family. Or you having a wife. Maybe you're somebody that divorce to is a taboo. It's failure. So, that's why I say you start with the truth. But a lot of times, people are so confused. They don't even know what to process. But you just have to take it a piece at a time. What does this mean to me? And start embracing that. Because there is a future coming.

[00:10:49] So, if you block it from your mind or you stop thinking about it, the days are going to pass. The future is coming. So, we can just make a choice to go through that future in a healthy way. Or just be stuck in anger and just feel lost. So, it's a choice. I think the journey to healing starts with a choice that I'm going to heal. And with the understanding that you're going to be okay. It hurts now. And it's okay to hurt.

[00:11:18] I don't think, even if you wanted the divorce, this is something people don't understand. Even if it was your idea and this is what you want. And you think that it's going to be best for me in every sense of the word. It still hurts. Because it's a loss. And we have to acknowledge that pain and own it and sit in it and process it. And see how we come out of it. What do we do with it?

[00:11:46] Do we attack the other person? Do we take them to the cleaners? So, that's where when you talk to us, you see. It's not about the house. It's not about the retirement plan. It's not even about the kids. It's starting with how do I feel? What are my different emotions?

[00:12:07] Because those are the emotions that are going to drive your actions towards your children, towards your ex, and everything that comes with it. Is a divorce a conflict? It is war. To some people, it is war. I don't know. Some people talk about an amicable divorce.

[00:12:29] But a lot of, if you talk to divorce attorneys, they would advise you you're better off doing it amicably, negotiating if you can. But I think, again, because people go into it unprepared. And by that, without a therapist, without a mediator to guide them, manage their emotions, and give them some clarity, they go into it with anger.

[00:12:56] And they go into it in an attack mode. So, yeah, it ends up being conflict. It ends up being war. So, what does the peace mean, each letter? P, E, E, E. Yeah, so that is an acronym. Now, first of all, we use that. The peace is P is for patience. E is for empathy. A is for awareness. C for communication. And E for emotional intelligence.

[00:13:25] Now, that is a summary of certain values. And this is also, we talked about legacy. This work is not mine. I don't own it. It's actually from my father. So, these are values that he taught us with. And it's about patience, tolerance, vigilance, forgiveness, and love, and avoiding jealousy, and avoiding anger, and trying not to hurt the other person. So, these were the tenets. But it was always about peace.

[00:13:52] And so, we put that together into that acronym. And then, the work that we do. It's a whole framework that we go into all of those values. And again, you have the first P is patience. You just have to be patient with the other person. Patient with the system. And patient with yourself. That you're going to be okay. Like, I talked about who wanted the divorce. We've not even talked about guilt. We've not even talked about the different types of hurt.

[00:14:21] Because it may be you've been a good man all your life. You've worked so hard for this family. You've given your wife everything they needed. And you, your humanity, in one moment of weakness, you did something that you should not have done. And it ends your marriage. And you feel, okay, I was good 99% of the time. And I'm being punished for this one time. And I didn't. So, that is harder.

[00:14:50] But you have no control over the other person. Whether they are going to decide to stay or not. If they've made up their mind, that is where I said the truth is you have to face the truth. Whether it's workable or it's not workable. The last thing you want to do is chasing somebody who is already gone to a place of no return. It only adds to your hurt. And I think that is where a therapist comes in.

[00:15:20] Because people think I can do this by myself. Yes, you can. But that just adds to your hurt. Wow. So, many men struggle with the co-parenting conflicts. That's a big word, man. Co-parenting. And one of the things I tell people that my men struggle with not being able to control what happens at the ex's house. They can't let it go. That power struggle. And it took me a while to figure that out too.

[00:15:46] But one of my guests told me that you have to love your kids more than you hate your ex. And then go from there. What do you think about that? I couldn't say it any better. I could not say that any better. And the other thing when it comes to children, what I would tell people, men or women going through divorce, is, when it comes to your children, remember, you've cut ties with your ex. But your relationship with your children is for life.

[00:16:15] And I think, as a physician, when I did medicine, the worst thing to see, I wouldn't say the worst, but I think it's sad to see somebody in their old age. They are very sick. They are dying. They have children, adult children, who do not want to have anything to do with them.

[00:16:42] Because of how people conducted themselves through their childhood and their divorce. I think if there is anything I can say to people going through divorce is, think of your old age. All your friends are gone. You're retired. You are sick. Your good looks are gone. Your bodily functions are betraying you. The relationship you are creating with this child.

[00:17:12] They may be under 10. They may be adolescents. Think of whether you want that child by your side and build the relationship from there. Because it can bite you in the butt later. Because I have heard and I've had people confess that they messed up. Because, as you say, at that time, you were angrier at your ex that you forgot about the kid.

[00:17:41] And so this is the one thing I would say that has changed positively is that men are getting more parenting time. They're fighting for more parenting time. I believe that children need both parents, except in cases that, you know, we have to protect the child. So that is a plus. I think that is a plus for men.

[00:18:02] I also think that, unfortunately, women have also used greed to take men to the cleaners and used children and parenting time for that. And so men are fighting back with more parenting time. So you have it. It goes both ways. It's either people want the child because they want to avoid pain so much. Whatever the reason, I tell people, it's not about the money. Think about your future relationship with that child.

[00:18:32] And the other thing is when we fight, we are performers. Life is a stage. There is an Italian song. Life is a big stage. So even when we are going through divorce, we are on that stage and we are playing to the audience. Make sure you're playing to the audience of your children, not the judge, not the friends.

[00:18:57] Make sure you're playing to the audience of your children, because whether you like it or not, whatever you're doing on that stage, they are watching. And they know who you're playing to. They know whether you care about them or not. Wow. So many men feel a loss of identity after a divorce. How can they rebuild themselves as leaders in their families and communities during this transition? One day at a time, because you have to redefine yourself.

[00:19:26] We all go through when we go through changes, we have to redefine ourselves. So if you think about when you were in school, you're a student. The day you graduate as a doctor, what do you feel? Insecurity. You've worked so hard prepared to get to this stage and you go from one day to being David Webb to being Dr. Webb. And you feel like, what is this? And the same thing when you retire.

[00:19:56] You go from having a lifetime of your identity, being this job, getting and going there. And by the way, a lot of men or a lot of couples get divorced after retirement because for years they've been living separately. And now they retire and they find themselves together. I don't know you. I don't think I want to be with you. So, yes. So how so that is why now remember when I said the journey starts before the papers are served?

[00:20:25] That's when you have to start thinking. That's where the truth comes in. You have to start planning because the sooner you accept the truth, where you know this is over and then you start planning. What does this mean to me? That's where those feelings come. Maybe you're a man who what made you feel good was when you step out in society with your wife and everybody talks about how gorgeous she is. And, you know, maybe your degree as a doctor didn't matter as much as the trophy you had under your arm.

[00:20:55] And so now you've lost the trophy. Or it's a church that does not accept divorce. Maybe all these years your pastor has been preaching that divorce is evil and now you're having it. How are you going to go back to that same church? So, again, it's about spirituality. And this is where I tell people we all need religion, spirituality, all of that, but we should be very careful.

[00:21:21] Our relationship with God versus our relationship with the pastor or the priest. Because I think a lot of times people think that it's the priest or pastor that leads them to heaven. Not really. You don't, again, we're coming back to that identity. What is your true identity? What is your true spirituality? And yes, it's not the best thing you wanted. An intact family is good.

[00:21:49] But like I tell people, it's not every intact family that's good. A lot of children have been hurt in their seemingly intact family. So, you have to do that which is good for yourself and your children and maybe for your spouse. So, we have to acknowledge the hurt and create that identity. It may be a scandalous situation, right? That's where truth, you just have to put all the truth on it and realize you are not alone.

[00:22:19] You're going to get through it. You're going to create a new identity and you're going to move on. The only thing I would caution people, and I see that a lot, this is not the time to jump into another new relationship. I just have to beg your listeners for one thing. Please be patient. Give yourself a break. Listen to her, folks. Listen to her, please. Give yourself a break.

[00:22:48] Even if that man or that woman is telling you you are the best thing on earth and everything, just take time for yourself. This is who, as you say, how do you reinvent yourself? You have to know who you are. You have to know what you are going through. Like when they say when you fall in love, somebody once said people should not be falling in love because that's not really a good thing. The act of falling doesn't even make sense. But that period is euphoric.

[00:23:17] You have hormones going through your system. It's not rational. Going through a divorce is not a rational state of being. It's not the best time to start a new relationship. It's a distraction. And that might be the reason why the divorce rate of second marriages are even higher than the first one because it wasn't built on a solid foundation. Not that anything was wrong with the person, but you were not seen clearly.

[00:23:48] And you need to read. Yeah. So you're going through a divorce or you're post-divorce and your identity is shot, your self-esteem, and someone throws you a look and just inflates your ego. And you start to serial date and you try to heal through serial dating. And that doesn't work. It's fun. It's fun, but it doesn't work. Guess what? Because the other people are not coming. They have their own agenda.

[00:24:17] And part of it is not to heal your wounds. They have their own agenda. And it's not to heal your wounds. And if they stick around long enough and realize that every conversation is about your ex, because that's what it is. Oh, my gosh. You're still a choir right here. That tells you also it is normal. How do we know these things? Because it is normal.

[00:24:46] As physicians, when you see a patient, you've seen them before that disease process. Even if it's the first time you're meeting them, you ask them questions. You feel, oh, how do you know? Because that is the natural progression of most things. Now, we have unicorns once in a while. That throws us a challenge and we're scratching our heads. But most often, we all fall under that bell curve. Yeah. So you've lived in Italy and Cameroon and the States.

[00:25:16] And you bring unique cultural lens to the conversation. How do cultural attitude toward masculinity and vulnerability differ? And what advice would you give men in the U.S. to adopt a more balanced approach? That's a deep question. Oh, I'm glad you asked that question. I am really glad you asked that question because erroneously, we think we are different.

[00:25:40] But we don't realize that all cultures came from this patriarchal system. And I would tell you this, let me just throw this in there just to see the things we think about ourselves. Because here, you may have African-Americans thinking, this is the way we are. This is the way our men are. But I have had Caucasian men and women tell me the same thing.

[00:26:04] And I went back, this was around 2006, while I was doing some of these my workshops in Cameroon. I had a seminar. And I just threw it out there to the group. I said, of all the continents, I'm going to describe this man. And you tell me what continent this man is from. And I said, he insults his wife. He says, if I didn't marry you, nobody would marry you. You are up to no good and all of that stuff. And they all said, oh, he's African. Okay.

[00:26:34] Okay. They said, he is African. I said, that's where you're mistaken. He is a white guy who is a doctor. He is a judge. He is a police officer. He is everywhere. He is everywhere. And so to your point, the cultural differences are not really differences because we all culturally, we come from the same stock. Culturally, men have been taught you're the provider, you're the protector, your values are tied only to that.

[00:27:00] So if your wife makes more money than you, you feel inferior, even though you're providing enough and abundantly to your family. But just because you were taught, that is the wrong order of things. Okay. Again, the same thing. All cultures have that. So some, and this is where, when I talk about family empowerment, it starts with before people

[00:27:23] even get married, where men have to have a different lens for defining their masculinity. It's not about the paycheck. Now we see situations where we have stay-at-home dads, if it makes sense for the family, for their economics. And I will tell you, I have seen other men laugh at men who make that choice, even though it is a choice that is good for their family and their raising balanced kids.

[00:27:52] To me, that is an empowered man because he is not being forced to do that. He is making a choice that is good for him and his family. And we need to empower more men to do what is good for them and their family. At just the same, I have a lot of professional women who have decided to become stay-at-home moms because it makes sense for their families. And we have to start realizing that it's not a one-size-fits-all and redefine our roles for

[00:28:21] what makes sense in what circumstances we are in. Does that answer your question? We're all the same. We're all the same. Tell us a little bit about your book coming up. Oh, my goodness. That is my really passion book. It is called Beneath the Armor, Eight Practical Steps for Men to Embrace Vulnerability and Lead with Strength. This is about the armor. We have made men to wear this armor their entire life, an armor of strength.

[00:28:51] And beneath it, we have all the pain, all the hurt, and everything else. But at the same time, I still believe in men as our leaders. We all are leaders. Men, women, and children. In fact, I had given a talk in Cameron to an elementary school, and one kid wrote to me about what I had talked about, and they went home, and the parents were having a dispute, and they intervened based on what I had told them. This is elementary school.

[00:29:15] And the parents were really surprised at what teacher taught them how to do that. So in that moment, that child was a leader. So I believe we all are leaders, and men are leaders. Now, 90% of our society is led by men, or more than 90%. Our families, our workplace. So it is important. So why did I write the book for men? Again, I say it's a segment that has been neglected. I have had the privilege.

[00:29:44] And in the intro to the book and the dedication, I actually dedicated it to the men who have opened up to me because that, I think, to trust me to show that side, which has educated me, and that many people go through that to see that pain. I really owe it to them. And that helped fuel the passion. And I taught writing a book for men to realize they are not alone. So it's an easy read, and it actually has case scenarios that men can relate to.

[00:30:14] So it's like composite of things that are collected through the world. And as you say, stories that are universal. So it's the same story everywhere that men can relate to, to understand that they are not alone. And as you say, how do they start the healing? It gives some exercises where you can just start answering questions for yourself before you look for a therapist. So it's coming up any day now. So in your book, you talk about authentic strength. Can you explain authentic strength?

[00:30:43] Yes. So remember we talked about people think to lead, you just have to trample over people and not listen and just exercise your will. But if you realize the people who really have the power are those people who people respect and would spontaneously do as you will because they understand the values you bring for everybody.

[00:31:11] And it is hard to lead with authentic strength when you're not emotionally balanced. And that's why I say it starts with embracing vulnerability, which is looking at yourself and the places that hurt to heal them, become stronger and have that patience and love and compassion. And you will be leading from a place of authentic strength. So we are not saying men should not be head of families.

[00:31:39] We are not saying they should not be head of. We're just saying you need to heal that insight that is broken because a lot of people are broken, not by choice. We have to take ownership. Society has to own this. We did this to the men because we said you can't cry. That makes you weak. You are a woman. So how do you cry? Alcoholism. How do you cry? Drug addiction. How do you cry? Promiscuity.

[00:32:09] Pornography. Those are all ways in which people are crying. Physical abuse. And how can you lead from a place of strength and authority when you're exhibiting those behaviors? People might fear you. They're not going to respect you. But what we really want is love and respect. And so that's why we say it's helping them.

[00:32:34] So you need to embrace the vulnerability to find your authentic self and to lead from a place of strength. And actually, you would feel the strength and power when you come from that point of love. All right, Doc. Where can the people on my podcast find you on the Internet? Oh, now we are actually rebuilding. So it should be up tomorrow. But it is www.atengamd.com.

[00:33:02] And also on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn, Bernadette Atenga. And on Instagram as well. And the book is coming out on Amazon. Okay. We will have those links at the bottom of the show notes. Doc, I want to thank you for hanging out with me today. Today, I have to tell you, though, I only got four questions out of 25 to ask you. So you got to come back. It will be my pleasure. It will be my pleasure.

[00:33:31] I think you've helped a couple men out there. Like you said, men are having a hard time trying to heal, trying to move on with their lives. And we appreciate everything that you do. And the fact that you specialize in men. And I forgot how we hooked up. But this is definitely a treat. I really appreciate it. It's been my pleasure. And you're doing a great service out there.