The Concept of Overlap in Men’s Divorce Recovery - Trevor Petersen, PhD || Don’t Pick the Scab Podcast || David M. Webb

[00:00:00] Welcome to the DONT PICK THE SCAB PODCAST with the premise of connecting men over 40, with

[00:00:19] their tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during or after

[00:00:25] a divorce.

[00:00:26] Welcome everybody out there to DONT PICK THE SCAB PODCAST, episode 31.

[00:00:30] David with Trevor Peterson from Oregon Tech.

[00:00:34] He is a professor of psychology and a licensed clinical psychologist.

[00:00:39] He specializes in helping people deeply connect and thrive.

[00:00:43] He has a book called Overlap which discusses that specialty.

[00:00:47] So let's have Trevor and do himself and we've got a couple questions so go ahead and

[00:00:51] take a Trevor.

[00:00:52] Thank you.

[00:00:53] Yeah, I really appreciate the invite David to be here and talk a little bit about this

[00:00:59] area.

[00:01:00] And I think there's a lot of need here.

[00:01:03] It's a very common experience to go through divorce and try to accept and adapt and

[00:01:09] adjust to that new reality so excited to begin.

[00:01:14] What are some of the common emotional challenges that men over 40 which is a very specified group.

[00:01:20] So we're 40 after a divorce or during a divorce.

[00:01:24] What's some of the common emotional challenges that you see that they have?

[00:01:27] Yeah, I mean it's a huge loss.

[00:01:30] There's going to be grief typically and with that can come a host of different emotions.

[00:01:36] Sometimes there could be confusion initially depending on how things end.

[00:01:40] There can be deep concern about the status of what's going to happen to the kids.

[00:01:47] There's regret that wishing that things could have gone differently.

[00:01:51] There can be a sense of emptiness, just kind of a lack of meaning.

[00:01:55] What do I do now without this person in my life, without my kids?

[00:01:58] Especially if that's been a primary focus for the father.

[00:02:02] Confusion about the future.

[00:02:03] Where do I go from here?

[00:02:04] How do I reconstruct a life that I can still enjoy and find meaning in?

[00:02:11] How do you stress, distressed around the division of things and financially how are things going to be managed now?

[00:02:19] How are the kids going to be balanced?

[00:02:22] I think there's still many different emotions they can hit and sometimes conflicting emotions even relief from a one hand at times but also since a loss.

[00:02:31] Then how do you deal with those apparently conflicting emotions that are hitting you at the same time?

[00:02:35] There's a lot to sort out, a lot to process and during that phase.

[00:02:41] Why do us men over 40 not sink counseling?

[00:02:45] What is up with that?

[00:02:46] Over the air as you don't cry, fall down, don't pick the scab.

[00:02:52] All that stuff.

[00:02:53] How can you stress to men that counseling is not a bad thing?

[00:02:57] I think in our culture and our culture is very even within the US but there is kind of that man box that you've got to stay in the man box.

[00:03:04] You've got to be strong, you've got to be emotionalist, you've got to be a little bit dominant aggressive.

[00:03:10] I think there's still the stigma that there's weakness in admitting that we're struggling and admitting that we're having a hard time, that we could use help.

[00:03:19] The reframe that ISC is seen as courage.

[00:03:25] It takes courage to step out of that man box that might be your current comfort zone and it takes courage to do something that you don't normally do to move in a direction that's healthy for you.

[00:03:36] Maybe you can put you in a place where you're going to be better off for your kids.

[00:03:41] It's not just for yourself, it's for your kids and you can't offer them the best that they need before that in a place where we can provide that.

[00:03:51] Then it is scary.

[00:03:54] Can you do this scarier thing?

[00:03:56] Can you do the new thing that's going to be really healthy for you and see it as courage, bravery, a wise decision regardless of how it just might be.

[00:04:07] The stigma has changed many many men now.

[00:04:09] See counseling is really lifted in the last few years and so that's another thing you're not alone.

[00:04:14] Millions of men in the US are seeking counseling, have counselors with a regular basis so you're not odd or different if you're doing this.

[00:04:23] The tides have turned right?

[00:04:25] To some extent you're entering the norm actually for seeking this.

[00:04:29] I also think about athletes or almost anyone at the highest level is surrounded by support people.

[00:04:36] LeBron James. Whoever you want to, whoever you like, he's got.

[00:04:39] Sometimes they have nutritionists, they have trainers, they have coaches, they have people taking care of their finance.

[00:04:44] You know they have a huge team around them to support them and they're not weak.

[00:04:50] They just know that working with others allows them to reach the highest level of performance.

[00:04:56] And so if we want that as a father or in our own lives, I think we can see the wisdom and of course I would see people who have expertise in areas they don't because they can offer me something that will maximize what I keep involved.

[00:05:09] I'll have to tell you, I have to do a little bit of departure here, I have to tell you my counseling story back when I was married.

[00:05:16] And we were having problems so one of my ex-wives friends suggested this one counselor and we went four or five times and every time man she beat me up.

[00:05:26] Every time I was a bad guy, I mean every time I couldn't do anything right.

[00:05:32] So I saw the husband of the wife who we ferret is and we were talking and I said, hey man, you know what is up with that concert?

[00:05:40] He goes, oh man she hates men.

[00:05:46] I was like seriously so how can you, so what do you tell men to, you know, what do you look for in a counselor?

[00:05:52] How do you find a good counselor?

[00:05:54] That's a great question.

[00:05:56] That's important right to be an educated consumer of mental health services because it's not always a good fit and you have options.

[00:06:03] And so I like to think about the medical field.

[00:06:05] You know if you have a brain tumor, you may not go to a CNA right?

[00:06:14] Or an audition assistant right?

[00:06:16] You may not even go to your primary care physician.

[00:06:19] You may go to your expertise in that area and it's the same with the mental health field like you have

[00:06:24] different levels of people at different levels of training and so you may want to go to someone with the highest.

[00:06:29] If you feel like what you're doing with this really severe so new has the high-level training and it has expertise in that area

[00:06:35] who does that type of work who has specific training and is certified in a licensed in that area

[00:06:41] because you're going to get a different result.

[00:06:42] You know you talk to a man one time who had gotten out of prison and was having really serious PTSD symptoms

[00:06:48] you know nightmares and can be intimate with his wife anymore because

[00:06:52] you know just the violence and some of the things that he dealt with in intimate situations

[00:06:56] and I asked him about you know if he'd gotten any help is again with a counselor and

[00:07:00] Michael told me about it and he's like well it's you know she listens and nods her head and says

[00:07:05] that sounds really hard and that's it and he's like I don't think I'm getting any better.

[00:07:11] Is she using like EMDR or like um for long exposure therapy or kind of

[00:07:17] you know one of these evidence-based treatment that everyone is going in science to work right

[00:07:22] because they have the elements like exposure and reprocessing and she's like no she's not doing

[00:07:26] any of them. Yeah I wouldn't it wouldn't work then because she's not following the science just

[00:07:30] like a physician who has no training in an area you don't want him to do brain surgery on you

[00:07:36] though I think that's that's a big thing that we don't we kind of think oh just go to any

[00:07:40] therapist they're all the same they're not at all they have different training different expertise

[00:07:44] and there's evidence-based approaches for different things and that's important to know and

[00:07:47] so when you look at their profile you want to be very very attentive to what are their

[00:07:51] credentials are they licensed how long are they been doing this what are their areas of expertise

[00:07:55] if you know sometimes it's hard to get references because people keep that pretty confidential

[00:08:00] their experience carefully but sometimes some of these people will give great recommendations

[00:08:05] especially if they've seen growth and progress. You want a therapist who will say clear goals with

[00:08:11] you who has an evidence-based plan to achieve those goals so you actually know what you're working on

[00:08:17] the process you're taking to get there that's really critical because otherwise you can feel lost

[00:08:22] and have no idea how you're going to make make the gains and someone that yeah that you click with

[00:08:27] that you feel like understands you isn't pathic isn't judging you right like you said you know

[00:08:33] what someone who's in their judging you know it was in their understanding you understanding your

[00:08:37] goals and helping you move towards those in a strength-based future focus and they can be real with

[00:08:41] you right they can give you on a feedback if you want that too you can have some new two amiable but

[00:08:47] but you do need someone that you feel like you can trust you can be open and honest with where

[00:08:50] you can say okay I'm going to be my true authentic self-period words and all

[00:08:55] and that you feel like they'll still be able to take that and still value you

[00:08:59] and still help you find a way for I think that can be really credible to fill that strong report.

[00:09:05] So man take a huge hit in the self-confidence in the self-esteem arena

[00:09:10] what are some of the general strategies that men can pick themselves up you know by the bootstrap

[00:09:16] and maybe tackle some of those problems yeah I mean there can be a high expectations for men what

[00:09:21] you know they should be capable of and how they should be able to manage things well or easily

[00:09:24] as I think when we look around at men if they're all in the man box two and they're all acting stoic

[00:09:29] and emotionless we think oh everyone's fine you know no one else is being affected by this but

[00:09:34] I've found that with the many men I've worked with that's not the case like everyone has their

[00:09:39] secret struggle um there's a you know famous quote this is be kind for everyone you meet is fighting

[00:09:44] a hard battle pretty much true and true of men too um so I think with you know a self-esteem

[00:09:51] I think it's the little things right to build competence in areas that matter you know

[00:09:58] value and so if you have kids to become a better father to find ways to connect with your kids

[00:10:04] in a deeper way to support them in a more meaningful way to have richer conversations to be more

[00:10:09] connected to a matters in their lives um you know to make little steps of progress at work you

[00:10:14] know to improve performance I think we can get lost in work and not come to distraction but

[00:10:19] I think when we develop concrete skills it's easier to have confidence in that right at the

[00:10:26] level high esteem to self-evacustine different areas of our lives but beyond just skills that we

[00:10:32] can improve um I think it's seen our value right um what makes what gives us worth and really

[00:10:38] pondering that you know is it is my worth only when i'm in a relationship where can my worth come

[00:10:43] from other sources that i'm kind or that i'm wise or that i contribute or that um

[00:10:50] you know or something even deeper you know spiritual things could be considered too of what

[00:10:54] business were and finding a part from just maybe the validation we got in a previous relationship

[00:11:01] okay so i'm in a couple of reddits and a couple of Facebook groups with men

[00:11:06] divorcing and and post-divorce and one of the things i see and it kind of drives me crazy

[00:11:11] a call parenting phase where these guys can't let the control go of what happens at mom's house

[00:11:19] they're almost eating up inside with that where and i was there too you know i did the 50-50 week

[00:11:25] long week off chains on sunday and i had a hard time with that but i learned i had to let it go

[00:11:31] because i can only control what happened in dad's house what do you speak to men about that

[00:11:36] yeah it's really good on that and it makes sense right that that would be so hard when you

[00:11:41] love your kids you want to spend for them and you feel like maybe what's happened on the other side

[00:11:44] isn't healthy it's just like i get that um but you're exactly right like acceptance is key i

[00:11:49] i like this analogy of having to tug over with a monster so you're you're on one side of a ravine

[00:11:56] on the other side is this monster who's much bigger and stronger than you are ugly monster

[00:12:01] and in this ravine between you is basically a pit of death and there's like poison spikes

[00:12:05] in the middle and so you're having this battle and you know if you could pull then you're a goner

[00:12:10] and so it's a struggle but because this monster is so much stronger right the question becomes

[00:12:16] and when we're in a battle like that often it does it's going to trigger that fight or fight

[00:12:19] response because it's like panic oh my goodness you know there's there's a really serious

[00:12:23] consequence here i could get pulled in in any second and so of course we're gonna battle we're

[00:12:27] gonna dig our hills and and give everything to that that fight and yet you know if you're talking

[00:12:32] to someone you can say but like given the physics of this situation the tighter you hold onto

[00:12:37] that rope does that actually increase or decrease your chances of survival and the reality is the

[00:12:42] more we engage with a monster that we can't control the more we're actually getting pulled towards

[00:12:47] the precipice to fall in and so the key there is realizing what else can we do then right and

[00:12:53] again we're often consumed in moments of crisis which is fighting harder getting more frustrated

[00:12:58] but the reality is it's if we can't control what happens over there it's it's unwinnable

[00:13:03] and so the solution is to drop the rope right yeah stop fighting with something we can't control

[00:13:08] when we let it go we don't get rid of the monster that stuff's still happening over there but

[00:13:13] it frees us up to move in a new direction now that attention that time that energy

[00:13:18] we can redirect towards something that will enrich our life that will be valuable that we could

[00:13:21] influence for good um and there's all sorts of things that that could be but when we're stuck

[00:13:25] in a battle something we can't control fixated ruminating dwelling it consumes us and it can just

[00:13:31] take away the quality of our lives so i think letting go of the rope so we can free up

[00:13:36] free ourselves up is really critical and sometimes those analogies help there's another one

[00:13:40] that it's called Bob at the party and it's the same concept where you're like imagine you

[00:13:44] having a birthday party as an analogy and all these people you really value have shown up

[00:13:48] and then Bob walks in and Bob represents just everything you hate and despise ugly you know

[00:13:56] and so of course like what are you gonna do you're gonna run up to Bob and say what are you doing

[00:13:58] in my party get out you can't be here but in this case Bob says yes i can you can't get rid of me

[00:14:03] and so then of course you wrestle with Bob and you throw him out of the house and lock the door

[00:14:06] and you're like okay fine i'm and then you're gonna go talk to people you value but some of

[00:14:10] that we get back in right cleanse them through the windows so you rest over you rest with Bob again

[00:14:14] and then you get him out and then he hops back in again and this just happens all night long

[00:14:18] like wrestling with Bob trying to get him out wrestling with Bob and so then the question becomes

[00:14:23] like can you have a decent party of Bob's there if Bob shows up

[00:14:28] you can't if you fight with Bob all night because that ruins your party you're spending all the

[00:14:31] party with the person you hate the most um engage in a battle that's futile but if you accept Bob

[00:14:38] not they have to like him but to say okay Bob yeah i guess i can't get rid of you so do your

[00:14:44] thing in the background then that frees you up to go spend time with the people at the party that

[00:14:48] you're out there and then the part becomes a pretty decent party 95% of the party is doing the

[00:14:53] things that you value with the people you care about and Bob's still there he's still making weird

[00:14:58] noises popping down the head everyone's small but right he's not dominating your life anymore

[00:15:03] and i think it just goes to what you're saying like we have to accept some things that we can't control

[00:15:07] that frees us up to live life again well thanks a lot of try and ruby think about Bob in the

[00:15:12] monster all day today appreciate it i'm not gonna be a beginner get a lot of my head so

[00:15:17] so in middle we're 40 have a lifestyle change which is which happens to all of us even without

[00:15:22] divorce what are some of the ways they can accept that lifestyle change because you know your

[00:15:27] dividing half you see your kids half the time you probably have to move you know how can you

[00:15:34] deal with those consequences yeah that's a big one and all that change at stress and it can

[00:15:40] it can really draw our attention to the hard parts of that so i think one of the big keys

[00:15:45] is keeping that bigger picture in mind um so there's this new treatment now it's called positive

[00:15:51] affect treatment and what they focus on is the two there's kind of these two big systems in a brain

[00:15:55] when is the defense system that's all about dealing with threat and challenge and so it sends off

[00:16:00] alarms when there's dangerous things and it draws our attention to those dangers or threats or

[00:16:05] bad things and it can get really fortified and strong when we've been through

[00:16:09] a divorce or you've been through loss and we had hard things happen in felt threat you know we

[00:16:13] just become fixated and that part of our brain becomes really empowered and it can kind of start

[00:16:17] to dominate where all we see is dark stuff and threats and dangers but there's a whole

[00:16:22] another system in our brain that we have to continue to keep strong you know just like a bodybuilding

[00:16:26] you gotta keep all parts apart you can't just have one big strong arm on this side and be totally

[00:16:30] atrophied on this that and so that other system is the approach or appetite of system

[00:16:35] and it's about seeking rewards that enrich our lives and that system we also have to work on

[00:16:41] fortifying have seen the good approaching the good enjoying the good in our lives

[00:16:45] and that can be done by anticipating with excitement things trying to really save

[00:16:49] her things in the moment reflect back with appreciation to good parts of our lives so I like to

[00:16:53] think of it as you know if you have this like landscape painting that's your life as an analogy

[00:17:00] we all have that dark corner that maybe 20% of our life it's really dark and there's

[00:17:04] tough stuff happening there and it's easy to like zoom in and just focus on that dark corner

[00:17:08] because we're trying to fix some of that right um to the point that that's all with time that maybe

[00:17:13] all we see we just see the dark parts of our life the hard difficult parts and then we can become

[00:17:18] convinced that 100% of our life is that 20% dark corner when it's really only 20% and then it

[00:17:23] feels like hopeless and like why am I even doing this everything's bad so the key is you know you

[00:17:28] gotta take a step back see the whole thing again and then you realize oh yeah in this landscape

[00:17:32] painting there's also this beautiful sun and these snow cap mountains and rolling green hills

[00:17:36] and the crystal clearly that also still exists in my life even with these significant hardships over

[00:17:42] here and when we regain perspective these hardships become more manageable we don't we feel like

[00:17:46] you know my life is still overall pretty good even though I'm dealing with some tough stuff

[00:17:51] and then we can regain some of the energy we need to deal with the parts of that dark corner we

[00:17:54] can control and to accept or let go of the parts that we can. Well so anxiety and depression

[00:18:01] are a big part of a divorce recurrent authority how can a man recognize that because sometimes

[00:18:07] we don't see the forest for the trees you know we don't see what we're going through what are some

[00:18:11] of those signs that we look out for that we're heading down that route of depression and or

[00:18:16] anxiety they can come on very subtly you know just all the stressors um when we get stressed

[00:18:22] we can start to get kind of more fatigued it can start to affect our concentration um

[00:18:28] you can start to feel depleted and there's there's this like human function curve where

[00:18:33] with progressive stress there's a moderate level of stress where actually we function better

[00:18:38] but then it peaks and then there's a decline right and we can we can start to feel like oh I'm

[00:18:42] getting tired and I'm having some concentration issues and I'm just not feeling very sharp

[00:18:47] anymore and I'm starting to get more headaches and I'm not sleeping well anymore and I'm starting

[00:18:51] to really feel like worried about stuff in the future and then there's this kind of this drop off

[00:18:55] and so I think the key is to notice those early warning signs okay if I'm starting to get really

[00:18:58] tired of the teagued and concentration issues and I'm not really enjoying my life as much anymore

[00:19:03] I'm not finding as much interest or pleasure in things like those are all warning signs that were

[00:19:07] on the spectrum right towards anxiety and depression and it's not like there's some magical time

[00:19:13] where it suddenly hits us like it's just this often gradual progression where we cross a clinical line

[00:19:18] where now it's causing enough distress and dysfunction in our life that we call the disorder

[00:19:24] and that's just because now it's imparing us so we need hope for it and and I think that can happen

[00:19:28] very gradually and there's just a point where we have to be oh enough and be honest and say hey

[00:19:33] this is really imparing like I'm not focusing at work anymore I'm not getting

[00:19:37] used to have done around the house I'm not getting my you know I'm not getting they're not making

[00:19:41] mills I'm not eating right anymore I'm not sleeping well I'm not going out with my friends anymore

[00:19:46] and this is getting out of hand right and I need to get help before this I get stuck in this

[00:19:50] and can't get out of this pit yeah yeah so the thing of a work-life balance when you're married

[00:19:58] and then work-life balance when you're divorced what are some of the strategies because it's

[00:20:02] a big difference you know you know the guy has his kids so my thing was which is interesting

[00:20:08] when I had my kids a week from Sunday Sunday and then they went to their moms when I first started

[00:20:15] it was devastating like it was a hard week away from them but it got to the point was I was a

[00:20:22] single parent and it got to the point was I couldn't wait for them to leave I felt so bad about

[00:20:29] that but my friends say hey that is natural for you to feel that because you're a single parent

[00:20:34] for a week and my three kids were in high school and junior high so I was a busiest heck

[00:20:40] so what are some of the things that you can tell parents about you know a work-life balance

[00:20:44] that's a great question yeah it's true I mean the if you had been you know in a relationship managing

[00:20:50] those kids with two of you and now you're doing it by yourself like that is a heavy load right

[00:20:54] I'm as heavy load for anyone regardless of if they'd have that relationship or not and so I think

[00:20:59] it's okay to acknowledge that like this is tough this is a lot I'm balancing a lot on my you know

[00:21:05] full-time job trying to get the bill their activities either for them support them and that's

[00:21:09] going to take a toll it's going to lead to some depletion at times even if you love those kids and

[00:21:13] are willing to do that for them and so when we're honest about that yeah I'm tired I'm depleted

[00:21:19] then I think we can manage and provide the self-care we need especially once they do leave

[00:21:25] we can say okay I need a nap now and that we can appreciate yeah a little bit of a break in

[00:21:30] that we can kind of restore our energy so we're ready for when they come back and that can

[00:21:36] actually create maybe a kind of a cycle that is really healthy I think we all need cycles where we

[00:21:40] you know work hard and put in some intensity but then we have a break and we can rest and recover

[00:21:45] and then we reinvest and put in effort and so if we can see it as just like an healthy cycle

[00:21:50] then I don't think we have to fall bad or guilty that we feel that way but we can also use the

[00:21:54] time off to recover and promote give that self-care going so that we're reenergized when it happens

[00:21:59] again well we're coming back speak to the men which was me by the way who have that contentious

[00:22:07] divorce I mean it's bad you know that you know the kids go separate things like that and it got

[00:22:12] to the point where I could only uh converse with her with text and email and we still don't have

[00:22:18] relationship which is fine with me speak to those guys that are that are having that hard time

[00:22:24] with communication and then one of the guys who I podcast with he said biff be brief informative

[00:22:33] friendly and firm which was like four things I never thought about in the conversation with an ex

[00:22:41] so so speak to that that's grabbing that's excellent acronym I think having some structure like

[00:22:48] that to the communication would be helpful just some prompts or reminders because when we're angry

[00:22:54] we can get out the rails a bit and I go in a direction that we're like oh that was an effective

[00:22:59] or that um that didn't help the situation so I think thinking about okay what is the outcome

[00:23:06] I want and what's actually gonna get me there when we're angry we lose track of what our actual goal

[00:23:10] is and we just react and we do all sorts of things that may really harm the outcomes we want

[00:23:16] so if we can be really clear about okay the outcome I want is this like what's the best way to

[00:23:20] actually get that to happen anger often isn't that's just gonna make the other person upset it's

[00:23:27] gonna escalate things they're gonna get defensive they're gonna be more resistant you know

[00:23:31] they're gonna be more resentful right and that's probably not gonna lead to the cooperation that

[00:23:35] we're you know or whatever it is that we're hoping for so I think your acronym is great you know

[00:23:39] just keep it kind of brief and concise and um assertive but respectful and if the person senses

[00:23:49] that from you we tend to not always right but we tend to get what we evoke from other people

[00:23:56] and so we everybody's got an angel in a monster in them we can evoke their monster and have to

[00:24:01] deal with a monster or we can try to evoke more of the angel and not that that's necessarily gonna

[00:24:06] be the case for the next that it's gonna be easy to get them on the walk right side of sewing out

[00:24:11] but I think sometimes it can't if we're consistently being respectful and clear and consistent you know

[00:24:19] and then hopefully they'll give us some of that back with time maybe initially not going to

[00:24:25] but if we model that hopefully that'll rub off and they'll realize wow it is nice to work with

[00:24:31] someone who's clear and consistent and responsible and still kind about this but assertive that they can

[00:24:37] then hopefully we can get the same from them let's hear a little bit about your book what how did

[00:24:43] you come to write it and what's in it sounds pretty cool thank you yeah it kind of came from you

[00:24:49] know just a childhood where I was introverted shy and had her time connecting connecting and because

[00:24:53] of that I think a hard time feeling like I belong or just finding happiness I was kind of on this

[00:24:58] pursuit of happiness from a young age to the extent that I started formally seeking it out you

[00:25:03] know through studying psychology and then positive psychology and there's just there's hundreds

[00:25:10] of articles right tons of books have been written on you know the theories of happiness and happiness

[00:25:14] exercises and there's a lot of evidence behind them but I wanted to figure out what's like the

[00:25:18] common denominator if you distill it all down what's the underlying mechanism by which happiness

[00:25:24] created and I'm like if I can figure that out then it's just much more simple um then it's easier to

[00:25:29] you know know how to have the center life on a regular basis and and what I found what I think

[00:25:35] it is I'm pretty convinced that it is this concept of overlap and the book is called overlap

[00:25:40] the heart of happiness and all it's a very simple concept it's it's basically I guess I can share

[00:25:45] it quickly through an analogy so if you think of like a beach there's basically four levels of

[00:25:52] engaging with life and with a beach there's people who pass by on the freeway in their cars going

[00:25:58] 70 miles an hour and they don't even realize the beaches they're perhaps or they do but they just

[00:26:02] rush passes so level one is non engagement it's what I would call passing passing by living things

[00:26:07] in our lives number two is when you actually park the car you get out and you sit on the shore

[00:26:11] and so yeah you're having a better experience now um you're more likely to experience some you know

[00:26:15] joy or meaning from that but you're still spectating right you're watching others swimming and having

[00:26:21] fun you're not quite engaged yet so it's closer to engagement but it's still just observing right

[00:26:26] so I call that spectating level three is what I call waiting and this is where you actually get

[00:26:31] off your chair you go get in the water but just up to your ankles right you just kind of dabbling

[00:26:36] in a relationship with the living thing let's say but it's you're not quite there yet right it's

[00:26:40] superficial and then the final fourth level of engagement which I would say is full engagement

[00:26:45] with life and living things is what I call overlap and so these are the people or this is when we

[00:26:49] put the snorkeling gear on we swim out there and we dive down and we see the reefs teaming with

[00:26:55] plant and animal life we connect with all that energy all that life we form relationships we learn

[00:27:00] new things we're changed we're transformed because of this deep deep connection with living things

[00:27:06] and that seems to be at the heart of like all the theories you know the practices of happiness the

[00:27:11] ones that really have the biggest influences it's just deeper connection with living things and

[00:27:16] I call that overlap and it's when we step outside our comfort zone we open up when we are

[00:27:21] empathic we try to understand that other living thing when we then participate in an intimate experience

[00:27:27] of that other living thing you can be having a really deep conversation it could be you know a

[00:27:30] walk in nature it could be with our pet you know there's all sorts of living things around us that

[00:27:34] we can connect with that deeper way when we give our best self and during that experience when

[00:27:38] we receive all the gifts being given to us from that other living thing that's when we have this

[00:27:44] when we kind of commune right with another living thing and we have this synergistic transformative

[00:27:49] experience that can be really powerful um and so nice it's simple things it's like putting your

[00:27:53] kid to bed at night and like pausing and slowing down and having just a deep conversation about

[00:27:58] how was your day and like what did you learn and um what impacted you and and or you read them

[00:28:04] a bedtime story and you talk about the meaning of your own your lives and you just have this moment

[00:28:07] where like we connected like we we learned about each other we we shared like we were close and it

[00:28:13] was intimate in a really you know powerful way and that can be really energizing kind of like now

[00:28:20] right now exactly right now baby we're overlappin we're doing it look for a good example yeah

[00:28:27] we're going deeper right where it's not just hiding up the weather right like we got into some

[00:28:32] some really meaty topics yeah significant so yeah um so that's the basic concept is when we spend

[00:28:39] more time overlapping with the most living things we tend to have a lot more joy and by joy I mean

[00:28:45] that primary emotion that comes when we're meeting our psychological needs for connection for

[00:28:48] contribution um for growth those happen when we overlap and we experience more meaning because

[00:28:54] we just have this depth in our lives we just feel like there's just more substance and significance

[00:28:58] in our lives when we have more of these connection and we have more life satisfaction in the

[00:29:01] long run and that's what I mean by happiness is those three because we're just super content with

[00:29:05] a life that's full of this added richness um yeah wow so my last question I've got a guy who

[00:29:14] represents all the divorce recovery men in the world and I remove his top of his head and you

[00:29:22] have three things are put in there that you want put in there and they go to all the divorce guys

[00:29:27] out there what are the three things you want to give them wow that's a really big question yeah maybe

[00:29:34] one thing would be like you're of infinite worth right like your value is incredible regardless

[00:29:40] of this hardship you know you've been through something tragic but it doesn't diminish

[00:29:44] you know your worth or your value so I think that would be one is helping them regain a sense of

[00:29:48] self and of worth and um seeing you know they still see that it's easy to lose sight of that I think

[00:29:56] when we've lost so much and so I but I think we can reestablish that okay I have tremendous

[00:30:01] worth of value still um I think the second thing would just be hope like things can improve your life

[00:30:06] can can be amazing again there's this teardrop model of grief it's T-E-A-R and and the first one is

[00:30:13] like to accept reality of the loss the second is to allow yourself to experience the emotions connected

[00:30:17] with that to adjust to the new life and then to reinvestive in new life and so I think just having

[00:30:22] that hope that we can create a life that's amazing again and I had a client one time that said

[00:30:28] I'm not just gonna move on from this tragedy that he went through I'm gonna carry on like I'm

[00:30:32] gonna allow myself to learn from the difficult emotions I felt to receive the messages embedded

[00:30:37] in those and then you use that to craft a life that's incredible again and that is possible it

[00:30:42] happens for many men with their lives some maybe in some cases improve there's there's a new richness

[00:30:47] there's a new appreciation for certain things that maybe they didn't have before and they find a

[00:30:51] greater depth in meaning than ever before right so that'd be a second thing

[00:30:57] a third thing would probably be get help right seek it out from friends you trust family

[00:31:02] you trust get professional counseling if that if that if you're to a point where that would be

[00:31:06] useful don't do it alone like we're even though we're men like we're we are deeply social creatures

[00:31:12] probably our strongest psychological needs for connection to fill belonging to full supported

[00:31:18] loves and sometimes men have a very small circle right of people they get that from so then

[00:31:22] you go to course and as you lose not just who was your partner but you know maybe her friends

[00:31:28] and so it's finding community again it's really I think the key and it's awesome you know

[00:31:33] David that you found that in a group and then you became a mentor to that group yourself so that

[00:31:38] you provided that community to work through this with others that's tremendously important

[00:31:43] well Trevor this has been interesting this is way different than what I expected to be

[00:31:47] which is the good thing by the way yeah yeah oh yeah good thing by the way do you want to tell

[00:31:53] people where to find you how to get your book and I will have those those notes at the bottom

[00:31:58] of the show notes too but go ahead and tell people how to get your book sure so you can find me

[00:32:03] at drtrebertreverpeterson.com it's yeah se n the books on amazon so you could find it there

[00:32:10] um it's you know it's really designed to be kind of more of a workbook so every you know

[00:32:14] every chapter there's self-reflection questions there are application challenges we're trying to

[00:32:20] find new ways to overlap right with the living things around you you know first it's

[00:32:25] recognizing well what is living around me what's more living right there's a lot of time we can

[00:32:29] spend on non-living devices right or we could put the device down and go spend that quality time

[00:32:35] with our kid and overlap with them and and that will enhance the richness of our day and they've

[00:32:39] done really cool research on this getting off on a tangent here but I think it is relevant where they

[00:32:45] they've there's like this mappingist study where they on people's phones they would ding them

[00:32:50] um throughout their day and they would have to say what they were doing where they're with

[00:32:53] mm-hmm how much you joy they're experiencing or what other mood was at

[00:32:57] on the yeah they found that like when we're on social media on devices like it doesn't do anything

[00:33:02] for a mood like we were just flat but when people walking talking dancing in nature with our pet

[00:33:10] like that almost always is a significant boost to our mood and so there's evidence that overlap

[00:33:15] really does matter and if we want to boost our mood and find more joy meet more of our psychological

[00:33:20] needs like we really got to connect more with the living things in our life and and figure out

[00:33:24] when how much time we're spending with the non-living things and can we replace some of that

[00:33:29] with people with pets with nature with things that give us gifts right that fill us

[00:33:33] um so that's just a tangent but um yeah the hope of the book is to I think it's very relevant for

[00:33:41] a man over 40 um it's full of ways to kind of reconnect you know to create that enrich life

[00:33:47] again right then they feel like it's been enriched to some extent. All right so everyone

[00:33:52] want to thank you man that was awesome um I can't wait to edit this and and that gets you what uh

[00:33:58] this would be up in a week probably but we appreciate your time I know you're a busy man

[00:34:04] out there in Oregon go owls yeah um um great you won't leave it well don't recover though don't

[00:34:11] do just fine all right so thank you for your time and we'll talk to you soon take care

[00:34:16] they appreciate it all right bye bye