Dr. Tony is my first in-studio podcast guest. It was refreshing not to deal with any technical problems for the first time! We have been friends for over 30 years so getting him on the show is really special. His wellness and healing background is immense. It was like we didn’t leave any stones unturned in our discussion that couldn’t help men over 40 healing from the devastating effects of divorce. From his F*ck It Attitude to forgiving yourself and your ex, I appreciate all the value he brought to the podcast. Scratching the surface allows us to have him back on the show again. Thanks Doc!
Topic and Highlights:
Binary thinking
Karma is real
We can’t afford to be stagnant
What does divorce mean to you, not to someone else?
The trap
Work through the pain
Processing emotions
We have our own ownership
Put you oxygen mask on first
Don’t put everyone else’s needs above yours
Can do attitude
Kids can kill you if you let them
As we get older we start to retrospect
Sick and tired of being sick and tired
Forgive but don’t forget
We become MO better - Spike Lee
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[00:00.000 --> 00:20.960] Welcome to the DONT PICK THE SCAB PODCAST, with the premise of connecting men over forty
[00:20.960 --> 00:26.960] with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during or after
[00:26.960 --> 00:33.200] a divorce. Check it out. Welcome everybody out there to DONT PICK THE SCAB PODCAST, David and
[00:33.200 --> 00:38.880] Dr. Tony Young here. He's a psychologist here in Colorado Springs, a friend of mine, patient,
[00:38.880 --> 00:45.280] known him for a long time. We even hung out together a couple of jazz concerts, which is even
[00:45.280 --> 00:50.960] better. But he's got some history of divorce, helping people get through divorce, all the good stuff,
[00:50.960 --> 00:54.480] and let me introduce Dr. Young. So go ahead Tony, do your thing.
[00:54.960 --> 01:00.160] So I'm the president of the Denver Rocky Mountain Association of Black Psychologists. I'm also one of
[01:00.160 --> 01:06.240] the past national presidents of the Association of Black Psychologists. We started the Denver chapter
[01:06.240 --> 01:13.040] in 1977, and I've been involved with that organization since that time. In 1989, I started
[01:13.760 --> 01:19.360] Kuma Cultural Collective of Southern Colorado. We conduct the annual citywide
[01:19.760 --> 01:26.480] celebration as well as cultural festivals, and we have African drumming and dance
[01:27.360 --> 01:34.560] circle every Saturday, as well as African history and cultural city groups, because we believe that
[01:34.560 --> 01:40.960] it's important that our children and our adults obtain accurate information about our history and
[01:40.960 --> 01:46.400] our culture. Okay, so you've been practicing mental health for over 40 years of Colorado Springs?
[01:46.400 --> 01:53.600] Yes, in fact, I started off in 1977 with the local mental health center. I worked as a clinical
[01:53.600 --> 02:00.400] behavioral specialist for the Department of Corrections in the late 70s. I was also former chair of the
[02:00.400 --> 02:07.840] Colorado State Board of Rural. You've been busy. And I was also an administrator and clinician at the
[02:07.840 --> 02:12.880] Colorado Mental Health Institute in Pueblo, also known as the state hospital. So I've been around
[02:13.600 --> 02:19.440] for a long time. I'm also involved with some private practice previously for over 30 years.
[02:20.160 --> 02:29.920] And I'm about to retire in 19, the end of June this year. But do you actually retire though?
[02:29.920 --> 02:35.840] Do you actually retire? Well, I just slow it down. Yes, actually a retirement for me as a
[02:35.840 --> 02:42.080] misnomer. I'm not going to retire because I'm not tired to begin with, so I cannot retire.
[02:42.160 --> 02:48.480] I'm going to just open a different chapter of my life. I wanted to punctuate my state
[02:48.480 --> 02:58.000] service after 32 years. I have a civil service employee and an adjunct professor at UCCS here
[02:58.000 --> 03:02.720] in the Springs for about 26 years. I'm just going to simply do something different. Take it back a
[03:02.720 --> 03:07.920] little bit. Yes, I'm going to spend more time with the grandkids and travel and enjoy life.
[03:07.920 --> 03:13.040] I've spent my work in the community. So now I'm going to do some work on me for a time.
[03:13.760 --> 03:20.800] Let's start off with your world famous acronym or not just divorces, but for people that get
[03:20.800 --> 03:25.840] on your nerves or conflict resolution. What's your acronym?
[03:26.320 --> 03:38.080] acronym is FIA. Let me explain what that means. In 19, take the backless city. That was 2004.
[03:38.640 --> 03:45.200] I came down with diabetes. In fact, I was working through jobs. I was a psychologist at the State
[03:45.200 --> 03:55.040] Hospital in Pueblo, the unit manager, the clinical team leader, retired. I became the acting clinical
[03:55.040 --> 04:01.120] team leader and one of the psychologists on another unit in the same building suddenly left her
[04:01.120 --> 04:08.560] position. So in addition to my 50 patients, I also had 50 patients that I got from when she left.
[04:08.560 --> 04:13.760] I was working through jobs. I kept asking the administration at the hospital. When were going
[04:13.760 --> 04:19.520] to fill these other two positions? Two. Yes, I was working my own and I was filling in on two
[04:19.520 --> 04:25.840] others. Without one set more conversation and I've always had this can do attitude.
[04:25.840 --> 04:28.800] If you give me something to do, I'll get it done just step out of my way.
[04:30.640 --> 04:37.360] But my body after about four months said, no, you can't. And the administration at the hospital
[04:37.360 --> 04:41.600] will continue to tell me, well, we're working on and we're working on getting these positions
[04:41.600 --> 04:48.160] filled. They weren't doing anything. My body gave out. I ended up having to go to the emergency room,
[04:48.720 --> 04:55.840] my blood glucose was over 1400. Wow. In the emergency room, they told me I should have been dead or in
[04:55.840 --> 05:01.520] a diabetic coma. But I sat in the hospital for about a week while they were trying to figure out
[05:01.520 --> 05:06.000] what in the hell I had because they had me on type one and type two, diabetes medication.
[05:06.880 --> 05:14.320] And laying in the bed, I realized that if I had died, they just simply would fill my position and
[05:14.320 --> 05:17.360] those other two within a month or so. With the three people.
[05:17.360 --> 05:23.600] Yes. Yes. So at that point, I realized that I had to be more about taking care of myself,
[05:23.600 --> 05:31.040] myself, the nutrients, my health, mentally, physically, spiritually. And I had to really develop
[05:31.040 --> 05:39.840] the FIA. And the FIA means fuck it attitude. Speaking into non-clinical terms.
[05:40.720 --> 05:42.240] That's not a clinical term. No.
[05:44.720 --> 05:51.360] In a book anywhere. It's up the book of street psychology, maybe. But what I had to realize is
[05:51.360 --> 05:57.440] that having a FIA does not mean that you don't care. It means that you care, but not enough to
[05:57.440 --> 06:02.800] let anything kill you. It could be children. It could be spouses. It could be jobs. It could be
[06:02.800 --> 06:09.120] whatever it is. Then things should be more important than our own health because without that,
[06:09.120 --> 06:14.160] we cease to exist. And other people will continue to exist and you won't be there to assist in any
[06:14.160 --> 06:21.120] way because you did not effectively take care of your own mental, physical, spiritual needs. I had
[06:22.160 --> 06:30.400] that epiphany being in the hospital. And that has resonated with me for the last 20 years. So I
[06:30.960 --> 06:37.040] understand, I should say last 20 years. That's been a while.
[06:37.600 --> 06:43.360] So I take that to heart. And when I feel the people who are putting everybody else's needs in front
[06:43.360 --> 06:51.360] of their own, I tell them that they really would be wise to look at how they're spending their energy.
[06:51.920 --> 06:59.440] Why should we put forth 100% of our efforts to someone else who will not put forth 5% of their
[06:59.520 --> 07:06.320] effort for us? So we have to be able to look at ourselves in such a way that we value our
[07:06.320 --> 07:12.880] beingness. We do not place other people's lives above our own, even our own children whom we love
[07:12.880 --> 07:18.240] dearly. They can kill us. They can. And they have their own lives. They don't make their own decisions
[07:18.240 --> 07:24.560] and for us to be so wrapped up or enmeshed in their lives, take away from the things that we need
[07:24.560 --> 07:30.880] to be doing for ourselves, our own self-preservation, our own mental and physical and spiritual health.
[07:30.880 --> 07:34.800] So it's almost like when they do the plane, you know, they're going to take off and they tell you
[07:34.800 --> 07:38.800] to put your mask on first than your kids, because you don't put your mask on first. You can't help
[07:38.800 --> 07:43.680] your kids. If your kids mask on first, you're going to pass out. You're done. Yes. And they'll be done too
[07:43.680 --> 07:49.840] because they can't help them. Exactly. So everybody screwed. All right. So let's stop into some
[07:49.840 --> 07:54.240] divorce recovery topics. What are some of the most common emotional challenges men's
[07:54.800 --> 08:01.040] face during and after a divorce after the age of 40? I kind of concentrate on the age of 40 because
[08:01.040 --> 08:06.880] people have a house, the kids, the 401k. So the divorce is a little bit different than the younger
[08:06.880 --> 08:12.000] divorce. What do you think about that? Well, absolutely. Plus, as we get older,
[08:12.640 --> 08:21.360] we're engaged, I believe, in more retrospective. We take a look at our lives. We more consciously
[08:21.360 --> 08:27.840] analyze what went right, what went wrong with our marriages. But on the very personal level,
[08:27.840 --> 08:36.400] I can tell you that I had to come to the realization that I did not pick wives very well.
[08:37.200 --> 08:43.200] I ignored red flags before I got married because I was in love.
[08:46.400 --> 08:55.200] So, you know, I was in love when I just simply ignored the type of red flags that I would have
[08:55.200 --> 09:00.400] told my clients to pay attention to. I thought them I ignored them because I was
[09:01.040 --> 09:09.440] engrossed with my past. That's interesting. Yeah. And I've been married three times. The first
[09:09.440 --> 09:19.280] time I was married for, let's say, seven years, the second time, 14 years, and the last time, five.
[09:20.480 --> 09:30.240] And I had to also realize that the divorces are not one sided. We all have some
[09:30.240 --> 09:37.040] ownership. We can debate about what percentage, it doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that
[09:37.040 --> 09:45.600] we have our own ownership for either the success of the marriage or the failure of it. And this is not
[09:45.600 --> 09:53.360] to attribute blame, but just to simply accept responsibility for whatever it is. In my case,
[09:53.360 --> 09:59.200] looking back, I realized I just did not make the good decisions about spouses. I don't blame my
[09:59.280 --> 10:05.760] wife. I don't have any hard feelings about them because they're who they are. They are who they
[10:05.760 --> 10:12.000] are now as they were before we got married. And if I chose for whatever reason to ignore
[10:12.960 --> 10:18.480] the warning signs and red flags, that's on me. It's not on them because I chose them.
[10:19.520 --> 10:25.120] Correct. Well, what are some of the tips you can use or what some of the tips you have for
[10:25.120 --> 10:29.120] managing anger because like emotions get out of control. Oh, absolutely. And you know, people get
[10:29.120 --> 10:36.480] killed, people get hurt, people get butthurt. What are some of the things you can do to process
[10:36.480 --> 10:42.080] help men over 40 help process the emotions? First and foremost, it's important that we
[10:43.280 --> 10:51.040] seek appropriate help. And while on one hand, our families and our friends love us, they want
[10:51.040 --> 10:55.680] the best force. They do not necessarily give us the best advice. So actually seeking out a
[10:55.680 --> 11:02.400] professional who can have a higher level of objectivity and to work with someone who is
[11:02.400 --> 11:08.400] skilled enough to allow you to work through the anger, to work through the depression, to work
[11:08.400 --> 11:15.200] through all of the emotions that emerge when you're going through the trauma of divorce,
[11:15.280 --> 11:21.440] because certainly the divorce is all traumatic. I've never heard of a quote unquote,
[11:21.440 --> 11:26.320] get divorce. That's actually more on because the abortion itself is an ugly sort of thing.
[11:27.440 --> 11:34.240] And most people that I've known professionally and personally have had very bad experiences
[11:34.240 --> 11:38.640] going through the divorce. Then some of the anger stems from the fact that
[11:39.600 --> 11:46.400] two often times and not one spouse will go to the bank and take all the assets. And what I've been
[11:46.400 --> 11:57.120] told by women, as well as some men, it goes something like this. The wife's girlfriend will tell her,
[11:58.400 --> 12:04.240] if I was you, I would go to the bank and get all of the money out before he does. And that's a little
[12:04.320 --> 12:08.720] bit crazy. And it's pretty evil and mean-spirited because if you take all the resources.
[12:08.720 --> 12:11.920] And it's legal to you. Yeah, yeah. And of course that stuff gets
[12:11.920 --> 12:17.360] bought out in court. But the idea is that you're going to take all of the assets that you had
[12:17.360 --> 12:25.120] jointly just for your own use. That's just evil and mean. And men particularly who may have in fact
[12:25.120 --> 12:29.600] earned more than their spouses. And even if they didn't, the whole idea is that
[12:30.160 --> 12:33.520] ones are going to take it upon themselves and just take all of the assets.
[12:34.880 --> 12:42.720] Just out of being mean or coming to bad advice from friends or family is just totally stupid
[12:42.720 --> 12:51.360] because people come together in a loving way and as friends when they get married. And it's totally
[12:51.440 --> 13:02.880] just destroyed. Yeah, that is just a horrible hurtful thing to do. So helping men to cope with
[13:02.880 --> 13:11.760] an anger is something which really takes time because we have to realize that while we're told
[13:11.760 --> 13:17.200] that women are more emotional than men, I think that's very circumstantial. It depends upon what
[13:17.200 --> 13:23.040] the situation is and what the issues are that they're engaged in. But the anger that comes out
[13:23.040 --> 13:29.760] when you feel betrayed. And knowing that someone intentionally did something to hurt you,
[13:31.280 --> 13:38.160] to get men to just sit down and settle themselves and realize that, okay, despite what has happened
[13:38.160 --> 13:44.240] to us, we have to keep a level head. We have to seek help and do the best we can to balance out
[13:44.240 --> 13:52.800] our emotions and not just simply succumb to them. Yeah, because that's so harmful not only to
[13:53.680 --> 13:59.360] the men themselves but if there's children involved or you and the estranged spouse,
[14:00.160 --> 14:08.160] have mutual friends, you may have a positive familial relationships with her side of the
[14:08.160 --> 14:16.000] family. You don't want to destroy those relationships any more than they're going to be
[14:16.000 --> 14:19.840] naturally through that process. We can definitely do a lot more damage. In fact,
[14:22.400 --> 14:29.040] we should be mindful that we can always make a bad situation worse. And we're not mindful of our
[14:29.040 --> 14:35.200] own behavior, our own emotions. We can truly make a bad situation worse. And we're seeing that.
[14:35.280 --> 14:41.120] I used to work in the prison system here in Colorado, like in 1979 for a number of years.
[14:41.840 --> 14:48.160] And I saw people in prison because they allowed their passion to overcome them. Men who murdered
[14:48.160 --> 14:57.360] their, uh, uh, exchange wives or their exchange wives lovers and, or no, no, no, no, I've seen
[14:57.360 --> 15:02.960] that people who actually were the perpetrator. So there's a lot of very negative consequences for
[15:03.520 --> 15:10.640] men not controlling their anger and their depression. The other part of that of this is that, of course,
[15:10.640 --> 15:17.200] the flip side of anger is depression. You know, they're like two sides of the same coin.
[15:19.360 --> 15:26.800] So being able to not succumb to substance use. I don't care if it's excessive marijuana or
[15:26.800 --> 15:33.280] cannabis use, if you will, or other substances, alcohol being the most common, uh, abuse substance,
[15:33.280 --> 15:38.800] other than prescribed medications, of course. Um, so being able to get the help that you need
[15:38.800 --> 15:43.920] for your depression, which is, of course, once again, the flip side of anger, being able to
[15:46.000 --> 15:53.280] work on those very diligently on a daily basis, sometimes moment by moment, because emotions
[15:53.280 --> 15:58.880] emerge when we least expect it. So we may have one of those, um,
[16:00.080 --> 16:08.080] visceral moments where we're thinking about our estranged wife or our, um, divorce wife and
[16:09.200 --> 16:15.200] we may get back into the moment with our passion, that passion not being the power of passion,
[16:15.200 --> 16:21.280] but all of the negative things that may emerge and not to engage in that.
[16:21.920 --> 16:29.120] Uh, outside of, uh, getting, uh, the therapeutic help that we need, uh, in therapy, we can release.
[16:29.120 --> 16:35.360] We can say anything we wanted to accept that we're going to harm ourselves or harm someone else.
[16:35.360 --> 16:43.760] Right. So you have to be very careful about making statements like that because psychotherapists have
[16:43.760 --> 16:49.920] a duty to report legally and professionally. So we don't want to get into that type of ideation.
[16:50.880 --> 16:58.640] But certainly it's a safe place to emote. It's a safe place to just do a emotional
[16:58.640 --> 17:04.160] duck if you need to, because the therapist who engaged in this type of work should be, um,
[17:04.960 --> 17:09.920] experienced enough and, and skilled enough to help someone work through those issues.
[17:10.480 --> 17:15.040] Yeah. Some of the people I've talked to you, um, more than once, you know, we're talking about
[17:15.040 --> 17:19.920] the negative issues suicide. And I remember before I went through my divorce, I thought
[17:19.920 --> 17:25.280] that suicide was one of the most, uh, selfless things you can do. But until you hit rock bottom,
[17:25.280 --> 17:31.120] you can't say that. And also from a standpoint of suicide isn't really trying to kill yourself,
[17:31.120 --> 17:37.520] but making the pain stop. Well, um, that's one way of looking at making the pain stop or
[17:37.520 --> 17:44.320] I want to show that pitch, you know, which is a crazy, excuse me, must've been using a
[17:44.320 --> 17:48.640] knock. That makes no sense. Uh, and make that look, you know, since because we know the
[17:48.640 --> 17:54.560] suicide is a permanent answer to a temporary problem. Correct.
[17:55.840 --> 18:05.360] Suicide, of course, often nothing. Uh, and if people are impulsive, um, and so self-centered,
[18:05.360 --> 18:09.200] that they're not considering the damage that they're doing to other people who they love,
[18:10.160 --> 18:16.000] their own, uh, nuclear family, maybe close friends, maybe colleagues who they're very close to,
[18:16.000 --> 18:19.920] to just simply say, I'm going to kill myself because it's going to stop the pain. Well,
[18:19.920 --> 18:26.000] pain is temporary for all of us. Even the physical pain for the most part, unless we're in some
[18:26.000 --> 18:33.440] chronic condition, physiologically, it's a temporary condition. And as human beings, as adults, we learn
[18:33.440 --> 18:40.640] to cope with pain. We find ways to relieve the pain, both, those which are, um, uh, wise
[18:40.640 --> 18:48.160] and those which are unwise, we know how to, on some level, uh, make the pain reduce itself.
[18:48.160 --> 18:52.800] So don't succumb to the pain? Oh, absolutely. And pain is something that we grow through,
[18:52.800 --> 18:58.720] something that we work through. Um, it's almost like people who don't want to work through the pain
[18:58.720 --> 19:04.560] simply don't want to grow through their experience. And that's what the pain is telling us to say.
[19:04.560 --> 19:10.000] So there's something amiss. There's something wrong emotionally because we're, we're distraught.
[19:11.360 --> 19:16.640] And our, and our spirits are telling us, you know, you need some relief. Well, there's some
[19:16.640 --> 19:22.320] appropriate ways to gain relief from, from emotional pain. And there's a lot of inappropriate ways.
[19:22.400 --> 19:29.600] But we have to do whether it's wisest for us. Definitely. Okay. Uh, let's talk about identity
[19:29.600 --> 19:36.640] because you go from a husband, provider, to, and then your identity changes. How can a
[19:36.640 --> 19:41.920] manual 40 deal with that? Because that's a huge shift. Well, it's a matter of
[19:43.120 --> 19:49.920] perspective, because let me give you a, uh, a concept in psychology and also our
[19:49.920 --> 19:55.440] African ancestors taught us something very well. And that's, it goes something like this. Um,
[19:55.440 --> 19:58.560] if you believe a thing is real, it becomes real in this consequence.
[20:00.240 --> 20:08.320] So we have to redefine what we mean and how we define ourselves. Because we have the power to do
[20:08.320 --> 20:14.960] that with, if we allow society, quote, unquote, whatever the hell that is, or other people's values
[20:14.960 --> 20:24.880] to define us, their lives to trap. If you were a provider and a good person before the divorce,
[20:24.880 --> 20:30.480] you are still a provider and a good person after the divorce. The question is who are you providing
[20:30.480 --> 20:39.280] for? You're providing for yourself and for other people other than your ex-spouse. It does not make
[20:39.280 --> 20:43.600] any less of a provider. It's because you don't have a spouse. You still have the same responsibility
[20:43.600 --> 20:49.600] for your own personal upkeep. And for any other loved one who you still have some type of
[20:50.160 --> 20:55.760] responsibility for, or obligation to, it could be a parent, it could be a child, it could be a
[20:55.760 --> 21:00.720] some other relative, it could be a close friend. So we still continue to provide. And for those of
[21:00.720 --> 21:06.800] us who are involved with community work, we continue to provide for our community activists
[21:06.800 --> 21:12.240] and whatever, whichever level that is, or whatever form that takes. So things don't stop?
[21:12.240 --> 21:17.360] No, things don't stop unless you believe that they stop. If you believe that you're less of a man
[21:17.360 --> 21:22.720] or less of a woman because you got divorced, that's how you're defining yourself, because you have
[21:22.720 --> 21:28.800] the power to change that. So it's kind of like, are you a divorce man or are you a single man?
[21:29.520 --> 21:35.920] Well, see, that's that dichotomy is thinking. In our society, in Western society, we're famous
[21:35.920 --> 21:43.680] for dichotomies. It's either or, you know, we're into binary thinking, that's another way of looking
[21:43.680 --> 21:51.680] at it. It's either or. And from a cultural vantage point, now speak from an African-centered cultural
[21:51.680 --> 21:57.040] vantage point. And all cultures have their own particular way of looking at this reality. So I'll
[21:57.040 --> 22:04.400] just use mine, since that's when I'm an expert in. When we think about
[22:09.680 --> 22:17.840] our self-perception, when we think about who it is that we think we are, well rooted in our own
[22:17.840 --> 22:24.080] self-esteem, our cultural groundedness, if you will, because we can use those things as a source of
[22:24.080 --> 22:31.680] strength to combat all of the binary thinking of dichotomies thinking that we engage in,
[22:31.680 --> 22:39.440] because we're not either or. From a cultural sense, we're both and. So yes, it's very possible
[22:39.440 --> 22:45.760] to be a good person and a bad person at the same time. And in fact, we have to deal with all
[22:45.760 --> 22:51.440] cognitive dissonance. And I'm referring to cognitive dissonance being the uncomfortable
[22:51.440 --> 22:56.240] feeling that people get when they're confronted with information that contradicts
[22:57.920 --> 23:03.280] information that they already have. So we have this new information that really contradicts
[23:03.280 --> 23:09.920] what we have always thought, if you will. Example, okay, you're a good person because you're a husband.
[23:11.040 --> 23:13.760] Well, if you're no longer a husband, are you no longer a good person?
[23:14.240 --> 23:23.600] No, no, not at all. You could be a wonderful person and be single again. So we even have to
[23:23.600 --> 23:30.480] redesign what we call divorce. What does that mean? Are we looking at the legal definition or are
[23:30.480 --> 23:36.800] we looking at the cultural meaning of divorce? Are we just simply single again, rather than the
[23:36.800 --> 23:43.520] stigma of calling, being a divorcee? What the hell is that? I mean, in Western society, something which
[23:43.520 --> 23:50.160] is very negative. Many other cultures look at divorce as like, okay, it didn't work out. You
[23:50.160 --> 23:58.720] move on. Not America. Yeah. And once again, I believe that's because in a cultural sense, that's
[23:58.720 --> 24:06.240] how Western society, European society look at divorce. In African cultures, and we can go back
[24:06.240 --> 24:12.080] to the ancient chemists or the ancient Egyptians as the Greece, it was divorce back then. And the
[24:12.080 --> 24:17.040] divorce had a whole different connotation, a whole different meaning. Women has had as many
[24:17.040 --> 24:26.560] rights in the Egyptian society that men had. Equal. There was no thing about, well, the kids go with
[24:27.600 --> 24:35.040] the mother or that the wives are properly of the husband. That was totally alien to our
[24:35.040 --> 24:41.360] ancient African ancestors. But once again, culturally, we look at it real differently. So
[24:41.440 --> 24:48.560] I would dare say that we have to avoid errors in trans-substantiation. We don't use definitions
[24:48.560 --> 24:56.320] and values of one culture to try to understand the values and cultural meaning in other cultures.
[24:56.320 --> 25:00.560] We have to be very specific. When we say divorce, the question is, what does that mean to you?
[25:01.600 --> 25:06.240] Not what it means to somebody else. It doesn't mean what somebody else has told you about whether
[25:06.240 --> 25:12.560] it is. The real issue is what does divorce mean to you? What connotations, both positive and negative
[25:12.560 --> 25:20.080] do you attribute to the state of being single again? For as many people as a way of starting over,
[25:20.720 --> 25:27.440] say, well, it didn't work last time. So let me just regroup, go to the sidelines, since this is
[25:27.440 --> 25:32.000] a football season. Let's go to the sidelines and figure it out. Let's figure out another strategy
[25:32.000 --> 25:38.880] for our lives. That R is me, myself, and I. We have to figure this out for ourselves. And then
[25:38.880 --> 25:44.800] get back on the playing field, if you will, and say, okay, I have some new strategies of how I
[25:44.800 --> 25:53.600] approach this game of life. And not stay stuck on the sidelines, because oftentimes, we
[25:53.680 --> 26:00.640] foreclose on the possibility of happiness in other relationships because of our histories,
[26:01.680 --> 26:10.320] of having unsuccessful marriages. And what I would say, we can take an analogy from a turtle.
[26:11.120 --> 26:18.320] Turtles only move ahead by sticking out its neck. Otherwise, it does not move at all forward or
[26:18.320 --> 26:24.080] back. It's in a stationary position. So we can now look forward to become stagnant and how we
[26:24.080 --> 26:31.680] look at ourselves or the possibility of having healthy, fulfilling relationships with others.
[26:31.680 --> 26:36.640] And always being mindful of the fact that no one can make you happy. You have to make yourself happy.
[26:36.640 --> 26:41.360] It's almost like taking a chance every time. Absolutely. It is. It's a risk. And if you don't
[26:41.360 --> 26:46.800] want to take the risk, you don't go anywhere. You don't go anywhere at all. And not in terms of
[26:46.800 --> 26:55.200] having another human being in that capacity for you to have a companion, or a mate, or some
[26:55.200 --> 27:00.560] people say soul mates, soul twins, whatever, you foreclose on all of those possibilities when
[27:00.560 --> 27:05.760] we just simply say, I'm tired of trying, or I'm sick, sick and tired of being sick and tired.
[27:06.400 --> 27:10.480] And say, okay, I'm not going to do anything. I'm just going to go with the flow and I'm going to
[27:10.560 --> 27:16.400] avoid relationships or men, many times, and women too, if they're not that this issue,
[27:16.400 --> 27:21.040] I'm going to mention it's not exclusive to men. But definitely sometimes some men
[27:21.760 --> 27:26.240] become quite exploitative of women and just have to see them as sexual objects, but they
[27:26.240 --> 27:32.480] need to be used. And to me, that's just wrong. And mean, because karma is real. Karma is a real
[27:32.480 --> 27:38.320] thing. And if you put out that negativity, it really comes back to haunt you.
[27:38.320 --> 27:45.600] I can get you. Yeah. So I'm a member of a couple of Facebook groups, men, men divorcing,
[27:45.600 --> 27:51.760] divorce men, Facebook groups. And one of the common things I see, which kind of frustrates me,
[27:51.760 --> 27:59.600] is a lot of the men have trouble not being accepted of not being able to control what
[27:59.600 --> 28:03.760] happens at the spouses or ex-bouches house.
[28:07.600 --> 28:14.960] Well, my experience personally has been, I really don't give a damn. Really, because
[28:15.680 --> 28:20.080] that person's out of my space, I'm out of their space, what they do with their lives is
[28:20.080 --> 28:25.360] their responsibility. I have nothing to do with it. So as far as some men that I've known who would
[28:25.360 --> 28:31.520] get jealous, they would go over to their exchange spouse or their ex-spouses,
[28:32.640 --> 28:36.320] residence, and raise hell because there was someone else. Well, look.
[28:36.320 --> 28:41.120] Well, even with a cold parenting phase too, that you can't control what happens over there.
[28:41.120 --> 28:48.000] And in fact, my best advice for men or women who are engaged in that type of mentality,
[28:48.000 --> 28:54.800] control yourself. That's the only thing that you have control over anyway. It's a delusional
[28:54.880 --> 28:58.080] to think that we can't control anybody other than ourselves.
[28:58.800 --> 29:00.720] And sometimes we don't do a good job at that.
[29:00.720 --> 29:09.360] No, exactly. So for us to be so hung up on whom our ex-spouses with, that's just wasted
[29:09.360 --> 29:13.520] brain cells because there's nothing you can control anyway. Why would you want to?
[29:13.520 --> 29:17.760] Now, what is it about you that have to have control over somebody else?
[29:17.760 --> 29:23.200] Well, one of the stories I remember reading was the ex-wife was making the daughter call the new
[29:23.200 --> 29:27.680] boyfriend, Daddy. And the guy couldn't let it go. It's like, why?
[29:27.680 --> 29:32.480] You know, they really doesn't matter. All you have to do is control your house and make
[29:32.480 --> 29:36.560] memories with your daughter and be the best at you can. That's how you can do.
[29:36.560 --> 29:41.600] That's a wise thing to do. Once again, we can always make a bad situation worse.
[29:42.560 --> 29:47.040] And we can be expert at that. Yeah. And some people have and they find themselves
[29:47.040 --> 29:49.040] where I used to work when you talk about corrections.
[29:52.480 --> 30:00.480] So all that can be avoided. And once again, if we use our wisdom, if we use professional advice,
[30:00.480 --> 30:07.760] and we seek appropriate help through mental health professionals, we can really resolve a lot of
[30:07.760 --> 30:14.640] our own issues or at least keep it balanced so that we maintain our equilibrium as we struggle with
[30:14.640 --> 30:18.880] all of the emotional trauma of having to go through any divorce.
[30:18.880 --> 30:22.080] Yeah. So on the way out to the interview, we're going to talk about what
[30:22.080 --> 30:27.120] incarous mental wisdom would you offer men over 40 facing the challenges of rebuilding their
[30:27.120 --> 30:34.800] life after a divorce they never expected? Okay. Wonderful question, Doc. And the short answer
[30:35.680 --> 30:41.280] is to really first and foremost, appreciate their own value.
[30:43.600 --> 30:49.520] Appreciate the fact that for whatever reason, and this is not to lay blame at the feet of the expanse,
[30:50.080 --> 30:55.040] but to understand their own responsibility to whatever calls the marriage not to work.
[30:56.640 --> 31:03.200] It's okay. And to be able to forgive oneself. If you're able to do that, it is then possible
[31:03.200 --> 31:10.080] to forgive the expanse for whatever happened during the marriage. We have to be willing to let
[31:10.080 --> 31:15.280] go of it, but we can only do that if we're willing to forgive ourselves with integrity.
[31:15.280 --> 31:20.480] Let's just go through the verbal exercise saying, Oh, I forgive me. I forgive you. Like now,
[31:21.120 --> 31:27.360] that once again, using a nonclinical term is simply bullshit. You really have to do this
[31:27.360 --> 31:33.040] authentically. You have to forgive yourself to allow you to move forward with your own life.
[31:33.360 --> 31:39.120] And if you can do that, everything else falls into place is a healing process. Forgiving yourself
[31:39.120 --> 31:44.560] and forgiving your expanse is just a way of letting go. It doesn't mean that you're going to
[31:44.560 --> 31:51.360] forget all of the things that happen. Well, no, we learn from experience. We should never forget
[31:51.360 --> 31:57.680] an experience to forget as stupid as foolish because life is all about learning from our
[31:57.680 --> 32:02.640] experiences in every dimension and bad, because then we learn to do something better. As Spike Lee
[32:02.640 --> 32:08.000] will say, we become more better through experience. So no, we don't suppose to forget
[32:08.000 --> 32:13.760] his wives to forgive so that you can let go of that negative energy and move forward and apply
[32:13.760 --> 32:19.280] that energy in ways that are beneficial to your life and to the other people you care about.
[32:19.280 --> 32:25.440] Wow. All right, Doc, I think we just hit the top of the iceberg, but we're going to go ahead and
[32:25.440 --> 32:30.800] close it out on this Sunday afternoon and have to come back and get after it again. But we appreciate
[32:30.800 --> 32:36.400] you taking time and coming by on your busy day. I don't know, we'll have you back and do it again.
[32:37.120 --> 32:45.680] That was well. Thanks, Doc. Stay well. Stay blessed. Thank you. Bye-bye.
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