No One Talks about Divorce Fight Club - Karl Dunn || Don’t Pick the Scab Podcast 044 || David

[00:00:15] Welcome to the Don't Pick the Scab Podcast with the premise of connecting man over 40 with the tools and community To thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during or after a divorce Check it out. Welcome everyone out there to Don't Pick the Scab Podcast Episode 44

[00:00:34] A podcast for man over 40 either starting in the middle of or done with their divorce journey We present some of the tips tricks and methods for you to heal and move on with your new life

[00:00:47] Welcome Karl Dunn to the show. He's an award-winning advertising creative his life took a negative turn with his divorce in 2017 he had to recover from nearly scratch after realizing that there was no support for divorcing employees in corporate America

[00:01:02] Something we're gonna talk about his new book how to burn a rainbow, which is a awesome title by the way Discusses his journey and talks about his superpower in giving up on chasing everyone else's dream in order to find his own

[00:01:17] He's also keynote speaker with extensive knowledge of DEI and one of my favorite In divorce recovery self-love you gotta love yourself and same-sex family law welcome Karl tells about yourself and how'd you get to this point? Well, mate. I'm from Australia originally actually I was born in Canada

[00:01:37] I lived in Canada till I was eight my parents are epic travelers. I kind of picked this up from them so yeah, I but I grew up in Australia left there when I was 25 and Was able to live and work all over the world

[00:01:51] in advertising kind of ascended that Tree and then I was living in Los Angeles and I was husband hunting very hard Trying to find a bloke to get married I mean, I was really looking for a relationship very hard and met Max husband

[00:02:08] we had eight years together but We got married in year six and we started getting divorced Gosh in two years later, not even two years. Yeah Wow So when our divorce stuff

[00:02:27] I went looking for a book on gay divorce and I couldn't find one which of course was Probably should come as no surprise considering we don't even allowed to get married for like ten minutes before So I started keeping you know, I was reading divorce books

[00:02:43] That I could find the famous ones But if they're written by a man they generally come down on his side by server surf it's a woman and they just weren't speaking to the

[00:02:53] Kinds of loss some of the really particular kinds of loss that I was feeling as someone going through a same-sex divorce And so I started keeping a video diary for myself just to keep track of these

[00:03:05] Realizations and revelations that I was happening and I showed some to a friend of mine actually my friend who's house. I'm staying in right now Brian and Brian's like y'all need to put this in a book coin. There's some good stuff in here. So I just started I

[00:03:19] Kind of thought yeah, maybe I'll be maybe I'll write a book about this and then I you know Got fired my divorce went crazy. I got fired from my job here in LA and When I did I just jumped an explain mid-divorce and went to

[00:03:36] Berlin where I landed with my hair on fire and ended up living in an artist collective a former squat in Berlin Wow interesting, you know my three-story You know loft house in the Los Fielers Hills and my big, you know Advertising jet-sitting life and suddenly I had like

[00:03:53] no money left no visas and I'm sleeping on an air mattress and In a squat and thinking wow what happened So I started writing the book. I had a lot of time when I got there. So I just started writing it

[00:04:08] Yeah, so how did you come to the title? What's the significance of the title? Actually came out of a conversation with a straight divorce guy who was he was just about to start on his divorce

[00:04:20] And I was talking to him about the book. He's like sounds really cool. We're having this great conversation About you know, I was just trying to find the right title for it was called my gay divorce I hated that title. I was like no, it's not gonna work

[00:04:33] But I didn't know what the new one was and then out of this conversation We had it was all about like chasing rainbows for these elusive pots of gold That we think are gonna be at the end of them or

[00:04:44] Following scripts that are handed to us by society or by our communities about do this and you'll be happy do this And you'll be happy So it was about okay, let's burn those rainbows instead of chasing them and let's throw away the scripts

[00:04:59] And you know, I'm gonna try and write my own instead. So that's what the title is all about So how did you come to realize that you had to? What did you say?

[00:05:10] That your dream was more of a priority than others dreams. How did you which kind of relates to self-care? Yeah, it came in two stages. I had a Very revealing

[00:05:26] Conversation with a friend of mine in Berlin and it's actually it's actually one of the first things that I write about In the book it comes very early on and it's called Miriam's law and She dropped this thing on me in a conversation about a long story short

[00:05:42] She basically gone away to have a kid been Made redundant by her business partners while she was away and then when she came back The offer was to buy her out and that her job would basically disappeared and I was Incensed on her behalf

[00:05:56] Incensed and she said to me no no no anger is not required Carl She said I I know those boys better than they know themselves And I knew if I was ever away for any amount of time they'd try something like this

[00:06:08] So when I found out I was pregnant I made the decision to have my baby over my business and then she said to me How can I get angry at them for doing exactly what I expected them to do?

[00:06:20] Like she does not do victim and I mean right she dropped that one on me And I just come fresh off. I was on my honeymoon like a year after we got married

[00:06:31] Wow honeymoon we've had a huge fight in Venice. I'm like f you I am out of here I'm going to Berlin do not follow me I will see you in a few weeks when we fly out of there go do whatever

[00:06:44] I don't care text me if you're in the hospital, but I don't want to hear from you Like we would I was seriously considering going and then when she dropped that one on me And I started thinking about the fight that we'd had on the street

[00:06:56] I realized I'd not only been expecting that fight to happen. I've been rehearsing it Like half the things I yelled at him were from a script that I've been writing for years So I was like hang on that means I'm at least 50% Responsible for what he did

[00:07:13] Maybe more because I actually might have been laying the trap the whole time So when she gave me this framework to start to analyze my own behavior and find my own Role in everything that happens to me. I was

[00:07:28] That's what kind of kicked the journey off and then we had there was another moment of great significance where I Really thought I you know a friend of mine this guy Brian actually he we were having a conversation one night He laid it out for me

[00:07:43] And I realized you know what I think I need to get a divorce and then I was really scared to do it Obviously is everybody

[00:07:50] Everyone who's listening if they did you know on the start of it in the middle of it at the end of it that am I gonna Am I not I don't know I don't know I don't know and then I remember this article that I'd read

[00:08:02] by Mark Manson who wrote the subtle out of not giving a fuck and Mark said this He used to be a writer at a newsfeed called courts And he was getting married so he was canvassing all the readers of this newsfeed for advice like hey getting married

[00:08:19] What can you tell me about relationship? What works what doesn't work? No, no, no, and He said you're like they got Thousands of people replied and they collated all the answers and he said what he found was anyone together 15 years or under

[00:08:31] Says its communication anyone 15 years and older together Said the most important thing is respect and this one woman He quoted this one woman who'd written in and she said I can tell you that the number one thing

[00:08:45] To make a relationship last is respect. It's not good looks. It's not shared values. It's not sex. It's not religion It's none of these things It's whether you respect this person or not because she said the love will come and go

[00:08:58] There are times when you will not love this person That is the truth But if you ever lose the respect it's never coming back And I realized like when I reread this article

[00:09:07] I thought man, I've lost all respect for my husband years before but worse. I'd lost all respect for myself Because I turned myself into some kind of weird puzzle piece To fit around him and I think he'd probably done exactly the same thing

[00:09:24] So a combination of these two things I was like, okay, I gotta go. I gotta figure this out I've got to figure out who I am and learn how to find respect for myself again And I just I knew I couldn't do it with him

[00:09:37] So yeah, I had to go wow Well, I have to address the elephant in the room and let's get it So is there what are similarities and differences in a heterosexual divorce and a gay divorce? Well, there's a few things

[00:09:59] Obviously, you know the end of a relationship the end of a marriage Um All of those feelings are the same the disappointment the remorse the you know the regrets the anger that's all the same But for me What same-sex couples go through that is different is that

[00:10:18] You know, I went through a period of really feeling like I'd spectacularly let down the cause You know because we fought so hard to get this right Okay Yeah, and then I got married and then two years we were two years later

[00:10:32] We were getting divorced and we were I don't want to say we were famous in LA We weren't famous, but we were known around town like, you know my job afforded us You know kind of lifestyle and a house that was always open to all our friends

[00:10:45] Like if you need to do your birthday party here or an event like Everybody knew our house. Everyone was around at our house all the time. So Yeah, I mean it was it was this feeling of really having spectacularly let down the cause and I was made

[00:10:58] Yeah, I was very interesting like a few never married gay guys in bars like So a guy walked up to me in a bar Well, a few of them did it but there's one particular guy walked he walked up to me one night

[00:11:11] He's like are you the one getting a divorce? I'm like, are you? Yeah, he's like well, thanks for that man. Thanks for wrecking it for the rest of us and off he went And I was like hang on Is everyone Saying this

[00:11:27] About me like I stopped going out because I was like paranoid as you get during those things So there's definitely a feeling of letting down the cause that the other thing that was really hard was, you know, just not just the loss of

[00:11:42] The kudos of being married, but You know when I was married I was Married it was an absolute if heterosexuals could look at it and and see me as an equal

[00:11:54] And I hate to say it but it's actually when I was when I got engaged when I had that ring on my finger It was the first time I ever felt like I was as good as everybody else

[00:12:01] Which is terrible, but that's who I was back then, you know But then when you take that ring off you go back to not just being a guy getting a divorce You just get back you go you drop another one

[00:12:13] Now you're just like a gay guy getting a divorce, you know, you're just back to zero or below That was really tough. That was very tough and

[00:12:21] The other thing is, you know divorce laws are written for the battle of the sexes as they stood at the end of the 80s and the start of the 90s And it becomes painfully obvious. I don't need to explain this to your your listeners

[00:12:33] I mean it becomes painfully obvious that divorce is written with a very specific model in mind of a man Who's the breadwinner and a woman who's a homemaker with children and the law is written for that and it's written to

[00:12:46] Protect those women and children for for good reasons. There's a lot of dudes who would just happily leave them Destitute whatever I know those guys they used to beat me up in high school. I'm well aware of who these dudes are

[00:12:58] And so those laws in place for those reasons 100 but then suddenly when you have two people of the same gender no kids And I I in fact had supported my my husband for years, you know, he hadn't worked for five years

[00:13:12] We used to fight about this all the time Um suddenly is entitled to half of everything on the way out and I'm like and I was paying half my take home in alimony All of my lawyer's fees all of his lawyer's fees and all of the community costs

[00:13:28] I was broke dude. I was broke every I was making more money than I've ever made in my life and I tell you like when all those when I pay everybody on the first every day every month

[00:13:39] I look at what I have left. I'm like, I don't know how I'm gonna make it to the end of this month And I have to go to japan

[00:13:45] And do a global shoot where I'm expected to take my clients out credit cards are maxed out the savings are all gone like I I literally couldn't believe that this was the law It made no sense like when you apply that

[00:13:59] You know, I think this is the the weird thing that and a lot of straight guys have said to me Dude, this is fascinating because the minute you put like a same-sex couple It really makes you look at the law and go wait what

[00:14:12] What what is what is going on here? This doesn't Work for everyone, you know It was very it was really interesting, you know, and it was it was a very It was a real eye opener about what?

[00:14:26] You know straight guys with with married with kids what they go through underwars is because you hear it and you like Not like you don't have empathy for it, but you're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah cool. No, it must be terrible Then you go through it

[00:14:39] And you're like, whoa I I mean, I couldn't believe how brutal it was and the way that You know, there's only two roles for a straight guy in a divorce

[00:14:49] There's like if he left her he's a bastard and if she leaves him well, he must have done something Like he's the default villain and when these things are being

[00:15:00] Like I'm being cast as that guy. I'm like, whoa, like talk to lesbians getting divorces and there was like a friend of mine She was the breadwinner And she was also the mother of the the biological mother of the child and her

[00:15:14] wife stayed home and was raising a kid So now she's getting divorced and she you know, she got up in court one day and railed at the judge Like i'm sick of coming in here and you're treating me and talking to me like i'm some dead big dad

[00:15:27] Trying to leave my children and wife behind like i'm this child's mother And you need to speak to me like i am this child's mother and this one here Even though dna trumps everything she's like this woman here Is this child's mother too?

[00:15:43] And you need to talk to her like she is this child's mother And this is when you start to like when you put us through the system It starts to unravel

[00:15:53] Very quickly, but these are the only laws we have so that's what i was going through, you know, wow In your book you talk about um Your marriage didn't make you whole but you're divorced did what is that? in compass

[00:16:08] Well, I decided early on I was going to make it my crisis of identity because you know, I Basically I was repeating all kinds of patterns in my life Dating the same guy again and again, and I thought I don't know done that. Yep

[00:16:20] Can't I cannot do this one more time like I just I cannot if I'm going to go through this and I realize early on This is gonna be brutal But if I'm gonna go through this I want to come out

[00:16:31] A lot more like the human being I always hoped I could be So I've seen my straight mates like when their wiser girlfriends get pregnant for the first time They suddenly go oh my god. I'm an overgrown boy

[00:16:43] And in like nine months I have to be a role model to a human being I need to Figure out who am I what do I stand for what are my values?

[00:16:50] What am I passing on and the guys I know figure this shit out, but I thought okay I could do that I could use my divorce like that. So that's what I decided to do and I sat with

[00:17:00] All of it. I was like, I'm gonna I'm not gonna run from this. I am gonna I don't care how much it hurts I'm I'm gonna figure this out. I need to figure out how I'm wired inside I've got to get to the bottom of this

[00:17:11] So that's what it became about and I didn't really know where it was all heading But I realized On the way that it was about becoming a master of my aloneness Which is something I'm taking from osho the The spiritual writer

[00:17:27] And it's a it's a term he uses and I thought that's cool. It was like It's not being lonely but being a master of hero loneliness where whether if someone comes along great If someone never comes along that's cool both are fine and

[00:17:42] I thought okay, that's that's where I want to get to but But even beyond that like that was what I was shooting for but when I I would say the guy who wrote the book

[00:17:52] Got there to a place of self-love to a place of feeling like I am enough I'm enough all on my own. I don't need anyone else But I would say since then I think I've I've definitely found The world of you know self-love and

[00:18:10] I'm swimming in that those waters now and this is all kind of very new and I'm with another guy who's been through Something similar to what I went through not the same thing, but he's been his own his own thing

[00:18:22] He's arrived at the same place and it's very interesting to be with someone when you don't need each other But you want each other It's a very different way to love someone. It's great. Yeah So let's talk about ways of self-love Um

[00:18:38] When let's see Rachel and I talk about self-love on the other podcast I'm so sorry. I've got to take this off. I am cooking here my friend. It's los angeles and it is hot hot. No, that's fine We talk about self-love And

[00:18:54] Part of self-love is that forgiveness piece. How did that forgiveness piece work for you? well I mean, I think the first thing is you you you Have to learn first how to forgive yourself. Correct. That's hard because you know, I I

[00:19:12] Love beating myself up. It was one of what I loved beating myself. There you go My mo it was a very It was kind of my I've always been my own my harshest critic

[00:19:24] Um, so of course the first thing is I was beating myself up for staying within for so long Um, you know, I had thought at various points about going But then I think when you dwell on something like that so there was a lot of um regret

[00:19:40] On on the and and and anger with myself and not having gone when I first thought of it But then, you know, one of these things about going on a journey like this is guides pop up

[00:19:52] everywhere along the way and and you know how to burn a rainbow is really like the compendium of over a hundred different people's Wisdom and techniques and tools and writings and and things that I figured out for myself as well and

[00:20:08] You know something that this guy John Hare who's a very major character and it said to me is You don't leave the first time you do you think of doing you leave when you have nothing left to learn

[00:20:19] And often it's not about the other person. It's when you have nothing left to learn about yourself And when he said that to me as like, ah, then let me think about why did I stay so long?

[00:20:30] What was the gap between when I knew I should go and what I actually did it was quite a long time Why did I stay? Let's go back there. Let's have a look at this without any anger or

[00:20:42] You know any sort of punitive thing of let me find the reason so I can beat myself up about to have compassion For let's just look at the data. Why why did you stay? You know and be really honest with yourself and it started off this process of

[00:20:58] being able to Sit with you know, because when you go through the voices, you know the Violence of the emotions that comes at you that I have to rise and yeah these tsunamis that would Would come like I would get to the end of every day

[00:21:14] Completely rung out like tied to my bones because of the these Things that were doing battle inside me Um, but what I learned was to be able to start to pick them apart when one would arrive just go all right I'm not going to think about

[00:21:31] Like there's what I'm feeling Then there's what I feel about what I'm feeling like if I feel anger then do I feel like you know regret or remorse or You know violence or whatever like let's just go back to the anger

[00:21:44] And sit with it and every time I did I would get to know it a little bit better and I get to know myself a bit better and I it became quite exciting And so the process of forgiveness

[00:21:58] Really started when I thought okay, I can see I'm doing work. Okay. You got yourself into this mess Fine But you can get yourself out of it and this is turning into a very exciting journey of It's it's like discovering who you really it's like popping the hood

[00:22:15] And you look at it and go all right. I don't know how this thing runs, but by the end of it I will I'll figure it out And that that's really how the forgiveness began because it turned into this self exploration Yeah with me

[00:22:31] During the end of my or or in the middle of my divorce recovery It was almost like a carvana commercial where you have the level of the cars And every parking spot was an emotion And so I had to take

[00:22:47] I had to take all the negative emotions and kind of get rid of them like one by one because you don't want to populate your Carvana tower with negative emotion, but it took me a while and I remember the exact day

[00:23:01] I text my ex and I said I forgive you and I said no need for a text back And she blew my phone up for a week I Was like hello, this is for me not for you. Yeah, but uh, it's been an interesting ride

[00:23:21] Divorce reform as a mental health issue That about you know as in terms of work Yeah, I mean what I discovered as I got into mine was that There's zero

[00:23:35] Resources for people who are getting divorced like any people getting divorced separated or the end of a long-term relationship It all gets filed under leave your personal life at home And so while your entire life as your listeners know like when your entire life is on fire

[00:23:50] Every single aspect of your life is on fire your finances your housing your mental health your kids like Everything's going away. The losses are just monumental and you're just gonna turn up at nine o'clock on monday and go

[00:24:05] Let's do a stellar job. Let's have a great week everyone I turned into and because there was no outlet and I was really melting down I I was a terrible boss for three months and I have to say it was A the surprise that there was zero

[00:24:25] You know leniency for like I even want when I was going away for Christmas. I just said to everyone You know, I'm three months into my divorce like I'm going dark for like 10 days

[00:24:36] I'm gonna be off the radar. I need to and they were like, what are you talking about? Like I'm just not going to be I think it's no surprise that my life is quite a shambles right now everybody's seen it

[00:24:47] You know, um, but that's over here. Just move that over here and keep going forward Yeah, I got told you're the you're the leader of this account And you have to be prepared to lead at 24 seven from wherever you are in the world

[00:25:00] You knew what was at stake when you took this job and I'm like, yeah, but Like if I got hit by a car And I was in the hospital straight away. It's like take as much time as you need. It's all cool

[00:25:13] We got you like I'm trying to make sure I don't end up like fried, you know and You know, it there was no sympathy for it. It was just like get to work

[00:25:26] And it really felt like I was it felt like everybody was just watching and waiting for me to break And then I would be removed as the broken part and another piece will be popped in and that one we go and I was

[00:25:41] Angry about it for a long time. I was really bitter about that But then I realized they're following protocol, which is there is no protocol So in the gap of in the vacuum of where that should have been

[00:25:55] All the support I received at work actually came from straight divorce guys Because you know my friends who who were really supportive of me Couldn't advise me because they haven't been through divorces No one they knows been through a divorce, but you talk to heterosexuals and say, oh

[00:26:11] They've been divorced or their brother or sister's been divorced or their best friend's been divorced They can probably name you a couple of lawyers, you know like 50 percent, baby

[00:26:18] It's so within that world. So I got introduced to this guy at work. Well, I didn't know him, but he was famous He'd gone through a Crazy divorce. It was famous and people used to whisper about it

[00:26:30] I was like, oh it was before I was there, but I was like, oh must have been bad Anyway, he was at work one day on a Saturday like I was Because that's what was going on back then 80 hours a week and

[00:26:41] Yeah, I went up to him was like, hey man, I heard you went through like a crazy divorce. He goes. Yeah. Yeah, I did I was like, I don't know if you know, but I'm like in the middle of one right now

[00:26:50] And and he says oh and he stopped what he was doing Turned around in his chair looked at me and went dude. I am So sorry. Is that all right? What do you need to know today? Yeah

[00:27:02] And it was the first time I'm like, oh thank god someone gets it And then he introduced me outside our building. It's a big building big office block There's this thing we called the divorce bench, which is this concrete bench where everybody's outside smoking And

[00:27:20] This is where all the straight divorce guys would get even if they didn't smoke that's where all the other ones are So like we just all kind of gather survivors of the same ship wreck and we're all in the life raft together

[00:27:29] And whereas like I'd said before I stopped going out to bars because I thought everyone was talking about me This became the new safe space for these guys and there is nothing

[00:27:39] A divorce guy will not do for a guy who's going through it. It is a special club Man it is I keep telling people it is like joining fight club And it is everywhere divorce club. Oh my god like You know

[00:27:57] and that was a revelation and what was interesting was I lost my lifelong fear And mistrust of straight guys Because when you're a gay guy, right? Every one of the every straight guy you meet you're like, all right

[00:28:12] I mean you seem you seem all right, but I'm just gonna hang back a couple of degrees Tell me can figure out are you one of the cool ones? Are you one of the ones that wants to kill us? All right, and there's always this

[00:28:23] I'm gonna hang back. I'm gonna wait See see what's up with you. You know like we all have like gulf. You know girlfriends and Oh my god, this is this new guy. I'm dating more like No But the divorce transcended that though Say again the divorce transcended that

[00:28:41] Totally transcended it because again like marriage, which was an absolute so was divorce I would say divorce is even more of an absolute because It doesn't matter what age income ethnicity religion. Yeah, it doesn't matter whether you voted for or against gay marriage didn't matter

[00:28:58] doesn't matter divorce is the great equalizer and Yeah, man that was uh No one was protesting my right to a divorce on the way out No Rainbow rainbow divorce rainbow divorce man. How about it? We threw it in for free Congratulations

[00:29:18] There you go. Oh carl man, you're killing me Well what I realized what I realized and this was an interesting thing was I'd written in the book We didn't get the right to marriage. We got their right to marriage

[00:29:32] And therefore their right to divorce or what they think is fair for heterosexuals I've actually my opinion about that has evolved since then but at the book it seemed like a It was not You know, um It wasn't everything I thought it was going to be but the

[00:29:49] But yeah, the divorce transcended all of that and the friendship and the advice the wisdom the like the the the stuff that you just Don't know when you're going into one and these guys had it, you know, and they were

[00:30:01] And I went after that. Well, you know, like you'll be all right I'd taken my ring off. This isn't in the book, but I'd taken the ring off

[00:30:07] They've been off for maybe a couple of days standing at the bar waiting to like it getting a drink at a music venue This guy comes and stands next to me. He looks out at my hand. He goes like Divorce my oh shit. Yeah

[00:30:21] He goes how long might about two months in he's like Yeah, when you take the ring off. I'm like, oh last week. He goes. Yeah takes a minute

[00:30:30] It does take a minute. Damn and we got we got into it five clothes. This guy is like, here's my number five clothes totally like let's go The first rule about straight divorce guys club is you do not talk about the same divorce

[00:30:45] But this guy like gave me a number. He's like bro. I got you like even if you just want those three a.m Calls and you need someone to call. I'm always up late working

[00:30:53] You know my number call me then I got you you know what I mean like yeah It's real this thing. It's real and I think it's also because because the guys just get beaten Up yeah on the way on the way through it In fact, I got

[00:31:10] Another really interesting interesting story like when I was getting when I got engaged A lot of guys said to me now that you're getting married. You just made my marriage bigger You know my idea of what my marriage is is now bam, you know

[00:31:23] And like you gave that to us and they were so excited about it But on the way out I don't know how many curse words I can say on your show, but uh a couple what the hell

[00:31:36] Down at the divorce bench. I was introduced to this other guy called him ash in the book And he was like, oh, I've heard about you and like what's the deal with your guy? What's going on here?

[00:31:47] And I was telling a bit about what's going on. He was just getting so angry I was like dude what he was like. He's like that guy like like it was really railing. I'm like, whoa like It's okay

[00:31:59] But what he was angry about he said look as a guy going through a divorce He's like look I got married to my girlfriend that she gave up her career. She we got kids

[00:32:09] I have to pay for this. There's no question about it. We fight about the number But I got to pay for that He said The only thing you get as a guy when you go through this is to carry yourself with dignity

[00:32:21] Because when you get to the other side, you have to live with whatever you've created by the end of it And if you can't say I carried myself with dignity You got nothing. He said it's literally the only thing you're going to get out of it

[00:32:35] So and they were all really on each other about you got to keep your dignity man You've got to keep dignity and he said but your guy Is wrecking that for all of us and he was in sense He's like he's taking you to the cleaners

[00:32:51] He's doing all this stuff. He's acting like a total like I don't want to say these but any you can read the tirade in the book that this guy said because he was angry about

[00:33:00] You are wrecking the one thing I got out of this. He's like, I've never even met your ex-husband and I hate him already I was like, I mean it really was such an eye opener You know we can make actually

[00:33:14] Everyone else is like every other guys divorce smaller It's almost like you wanted him to make it fair, you know be fair. Yeah. Yeah And this is what you did what I discovered is that there is no I have I was powerless in my rules

[00:33:27] Going through that legal system. I had to switch lawyer. Well, my first lawyers fired me and then Like it's kind of almost hollywood-esque the way the second I don't want to you know plots by when a second came in I mean

[00:33:42] It was just as things were about to get real bad. So And yeah, then this guy Amazing. I mean, that's the other thing was incredible even though the law is very strict The difference a great lawyer can make Is incredible. Yeah Yeah, wow This has been a unique

[00:34:01] interview We have made the circle and i'm gonna title this one No one talks about divorced fight club. That's going to be the title of this one, baby. All right. I love it. Oh, yeah Carl tell people where to find you on the internet

[00:34:22] Absolutely. Well, you can find me at my website, which is carl done.com. It's spelled the same as here with a k and no e Carl done.com. Um, i'm on instagram as carl done always the easiest place to find me

[00:34:36] That's one social media. I tend to be on more than anything else Um, and then the book is also available on all online platforms as well But if you're interested in your local bookstore

[00:34:47] Get down to the bookstore. You can order it. Uh, there's an isp and numbers that they'll be all defined in their systems Yeah, there you go Uh, one last word. What do you got from a man out there over 40 going through divorce? Give him some love

[00:34:59] What do you got for him? It's all about to start It's all about to start you think this is the death of everything and it's the birth of everything It really is it change it is my divorce is the greatest thing that ever happened to me Wow

[00:35:17] All right, sir. We're gonna say good night, but hold on the line But we appreciate you taking time and man. I'm coming back to you. That was just the tip of the

[00:35:26] My pleasure. Oh man. We can I could I could go for hours. I could go for hours All right, carl. Hold on for a second. All right, everybody. Good night. Bye. Bye. Thanks a bunch