Navigating life post-divorce / The real deal! - Dr. Larry Waldman || DPTSP #074 || David M. Webb

[00:00:01] Welcome to the Don't Pick the Scab Podcast, a podcast that helps men over 40 with their divorce recovery by presenting guests with different and special superpowers. We try to find some of the out-of-the-box solutions to some of your problems. Welcome to the show, Larry Waldman. He's a licensed clinical forensic psychologist that's been practicing for over 45 years. That's a long time. He has too much education, books, and certifications to list here, but let's just say he's a big baller in his field.

[00:00:31] Welcome, Larry. Tell us a little about yourself. I got some questions for you. Welcome to the Don't Pick the Scab Podcast with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during, or after a divorce.

[00:01:01] Well, thank you. Thanks for this opportunity. I am semi-retired. I no longer am actively in practice.

[00:01:11] I retired after about 45 years in the field. And the last 15, 20 years of my practice, I worked more or less forensically in family law, personal injury, state planning, stuff like that. So I saw it from the legal end as well as the therapeutic end and so on.

[00:01:40] I've done some writing. In fact, I have two books that pertain to this particular topic. The first one, in fact, I've got it right here, is, come, I love him, but can't live with him. How to make your relationship better. And this one, and that one, that one came out, though, gosh, early 90s. This one came out about five years ago entitled, I love your child more than you hate your ex.

[00:02:06] I love that title. I love it. I use that sentence all the time. Right. Yeah. Because it's true. And I get a lot of my titles from my patients often. And both of those came up during sessions. I've been married, like I like to say, I've been happily married 40 years. Unfortunately, we've been together 53. But no, that's not true.

[00:02:37] No, we've been married 53 years old. And now that I'm semi-retired, I still write, speak, teach, coach, do podcasts. I'm also a certified trainer as well as a yoga, certified yoga instructor. So the yoga fits well with what I used to do, so on with meditation and such.

[00:03:04] So I do a fair amount of that. And I enjoy these kinds of podcasts and getting the word out. People need this information. How has your 45 years of experience as a psychologist shaped your understanding of divorce recovery? Well, it certainly has affected mine.

[00:03:28] You can't do this kind of work and so forth without taking on some of it and so on. And it makes me, it has made me realize, you know, how important it is. I mean, you can be terribly successful, let's say, in whatever business you might be in. And I've seen lots of guys like that. But when they come home, they're miserable.

[00:03:56] And that doesn't make for a good life. So I think, you know, I know, I should say, your primary relationship with your partner is one of the most important things in your world, frankly. And without that, the world looks pretty dark and gloomy.

[00:04:20] Yet, of course, unfortunately, what a lot of us do, and, you know, sometimes after a hard day, I have to admit, I've probably been guilty of that as myself. But we come home and use our marriage as a dump. And, you know, so we're frustrated and so on and whatever. And we end up dumping on our partner. No, you know, we can't do that.

[00:04:47] We have to treat this relationship as important as it is. And that's one of the things I certainly have learned. Aside from my professional training, you know, my experience with guys who've been struggling with their own relationships.

[00:05:08] And then, of course, with the divorce rate, as high as it is, then guys think that, all right, you know, I'm going to get out of here and find somebody else. Well, you know, the grass, as the old saying is, you know, the grass is usually greener right near the outhouse, you know. But it isn't always.

[00:05:32] So many times what needs to be done, as we were talking about while we were chatting, you know, is to get help. Address the issues. Work on it. And there are lots of people out there that can help you do that. So I was asking, what inspired you to write Love Your Child More Than You Hate Ux?

[00:05:58] And how did the principles in the book help divorce men navigate co-parenting? Well, I wrote the book because, unfortunately, I was seeing a lot of that.

[00:06:13] Now, obviously, by working with the family court system, I was obviously selecting, selectively working with couples that were having a hard time with their divorce. And, unfortunately, as we're all human, as it happens, a lot of these couples were angry.

[00:06:40] And, you know, by the time you reach this point, you know, you've pretty much said everything you can possibly say negatively to each other. You've heard it all before. And that doesn't have much impact. But if you can perhaps punish, in your mind, your ex or soon-to-be ex with withholding the kids, for instance, well, now you're talking.

[00:07:08] And that's what happens. That happens, unfortunately. The data suggests about 15% to 20% of divorces are pretty acrimonious. And this is what happens. The poor kids get caught up in this meat grinder, if you will. Their worlds get turned upside down.

[00:07:35] The person they thought was the best dad in the world, now are being told differently. And vice versa. Sometimes, you know, the person who they thought was the best mom in the world, you know, now, again, they're hearing other things and so on. So who are they supposed to trust? What are they supposed to believe? And so on.

[00:08:02] And, of course, this shakes the very foundation of their lives. They didn't ask for it. The kids didn't ask for the divorce. They didn't even know that things were that bad. Besides which, what do they compare it to? How many marriages, you know, do they know about? Of course. They, you know, they've only lived in one.

[00:08:28] So as far as they're concerned, that was the best marriage possible. And then all of a sudden it breaks up. And then sometimes, of course, in addition to this alienation that sometimes occurs, then parents, you know, wanting comfort and company and so on, bring in somebody else.

[00:08:57] Often too quickly. And suddenly the kids are, oh, is this my next daddy or is this my next mommy and so on. And they kind of get the impression like relationships are disposable. You know, you can throw one away and pull out another one and so on.

[00:09:19] And there is substantial data that suggests that kids who come through ugly divorces are more inclined to have one themselves. Wow. I am a second generation divorce. See, what's that term? Is there a term? I'm second generation and quite a few of my friends are second generation.

[00:09:48] So you were talking about the using the kids as pawns, things like that. I don't know about Arizona, but in Colorado, it's mandatory to take a parenting class. So you sit in this room in the county building and they show this civil defense 1950s film on how not to how not to use the kids as pawns. And even though they show that video and you have to go to the class, people still do it.

[00:10:18] Oh, yeah, sure. I was while I was working with that with the family courts. I was also what is called a parenting coordinator. I would get assigned by a judge who saw this couple as being unworkable, if you will. And I became I actually and I and I was foisted upon this couple. They had to pay for it, too.

[00:10:45] But it was my job to get them to or at least help them cooperate and so on with at least to learn to communicate. And I'm not going to tell you that I was successful in all cases, because in some cases it was impossible.

[00:11:05] But there were a number of cases where people would finally understand what they're doing to their kids, not to mention what they're doing to themselves. And so with all that that anger and hate and so on.

[00:11:26] I remember I had a professor long time ago say, you know, holding on to anger or or or a grudge is like taking poison and hoping the other person dies. It doesn't happen.

[00:12:10] 18 or so years ago. And I was working out regularly at my gym and there was a yoga instructor there. Her name was Lisa. And she she also would work out occasionally in the gym with with the weights and so on. And we would talk. She was also a therapist, but who kind of failed at that, which is interesting because obviously it's one of the topics.

[00:12:39] I talk about is successful practice development. And so we had a lot to talk about. And she kept saying, come on, Larry, you know, let's let me help you get into doing some yoga. I mean, you're doing the strength thing. That's good. You're doing the the aerobic thing. That's good. But what about flexibility? And what about balance? And how about and how about some meditation? And so on. I went, hmm.

[00:13:10] I don't know. That sounds. Anyhow, finally, I relented. And it didn't take more than a session or two for me to realize, wow, this is really a nice adjunct, you know, to what, you know, to what else I'm doing. Yeah. So it completes the, as far as I'm concerned, the physical fitness regimen.

[00:13:35] Plus, of course, the meditation is wonderful as well to just take a minute or two every day, you know, and just kind of focus, relax, just let it be, stay in the present and so on. So it was a nice mix.

[00:13:57] And then I started about five years ago, actually started to teach at my condos. So the tenants in the condo were taking the classes and so on. And then about two years ago, I decided, you know, might as well get certified. I'm a certified trainer. So, all right, fine. And so I finished that certification now about eight, nine months ago.

[00:14:26] I was the only guy in the graduation class. And the next youngest person below me was 25 years younger than I was. Wow. And so on. So, yeah, I'm, yeah, I just turned 78. Okay. So in your experience, what are some of the biggest emotional challenges that men over 40 face after divorce and how can they overcome them?

[00:14:54] Well, first off, you know, even, even if you've asked for a divorce, if you are the dumper, if you will, as opposed to the dumpee, you're feeling a loss and you're feeling rejection. You know, someone that, you know, you once loved and cared for doesn't feel the same way anymore about you. And then that's, that's, that's a hard pill to swallow. That's difficult.

[00:15:23] And so what, you know, a lot of people do and so forth is they, they tend to drink too much. They try to stuff those, those feelings, maybe eat too much and so on. And that certainly, that certainly is not useful.

[00:15:45] The other thing that, that happens way, way too often is that they immediately seek a new partner. We see it, we see it all, all the time. But this is a partner, this is a partnered world. You know, you don't go to a night, typically you don't go out to a nice restaurant by yourself.

[00:16:12] You know, you don't go to the movies too often by yourself. Right. You know, you don't take a vacation. You know, you can, of course, but you typically don't by yourself. Correct. So there's a, there's an amazing amount of pressure out there to be coupled, to be paired.

[00:16:32] And, and, and, you know, so when you break up a, an exclusive relationship, especially one that's existed for quite a while, you know, you feel at a loss. Like I said, you feel rejected. And, and what we do, and this is men do it, and just, and women, is rush into a new relationship very, very quickly.

[00:16:59] In fact, I remember I was at a workshop, oh, several years back before, shortly before I retired. And a judge, a marital judge was speaking. And, and he said, it was his experience that in the majority of the time, people were coming in to sign the final divorce decree.

[00:17:27] They already had a new partner at their arm. And see, that's too fast. That's too fast. You know, you, you haven't healed. You know, there, there's, there's a healing process. So what's the time? What's a, what's, what's not too fast? That's the year. A year. Well, but it's, it's not a year of just sitting on your hands. No.

[00:17:55] You know, it's, it's a year of, of reflection. I would argue if, you know, if you really, if you want the whole boat, I, at least a good portion of that time, getting into treatment, getting into therapy. Why did this happen?

[00:18:13] You know, I, I, as I said, I did this stuff for close to a half century and, and saw dozens upon dozens of people who were divorced and so forth. And I, and never once, never once did I hear anyone ever say, you know, you know, I got divorced and looking back, I realized, you know, I played a significant role in that. It never happens.

[00:18:43] Nobody owns up to it. Right. Right. Okay. So you, you have this belief. It's all her fault. It's all his fault. It's, it's, it's the mother-in-law, you know, it's whatever. Well, yes, I'm not saying that that can't be partially true. But there, there is certainly some role that you play in it.

[00:19:08] You know, even if frankly, if there's some abuse involved, and of course you don't have to put it, certainly don't have to put up with that. But many times, you know, it's just, you know, well, you allowed it, you didn't walk out, you didn't accept it, you accepted it.

[00:19:25] So regardless of the situation, the part of the healing is to acknowledge what role you've played, you know, in this, because I can guarantee you, guarantee you. Right. If you don't do that, what is likely to happen is you're going to find a new partner who looks like, isn't that interesting? I'm sure you've seen it before.

[00:19:56] Oh, yeah. Looks like your previous partner and acts like your previous partner. And guess what? You're going to behave the same like you did in the first relationship. And here we go. Number two is doomed. The divorce rate for first marriages in this country runs between 45 and 50%. And the majority of them occur in the first five years.

[00:20:24] The divorce rate for second marriages is two thirds. 65 to 65% of the time, you know, the second marriage doesn't stick. What about third? Oh, well.

[00:20:49] Well, and can you imagine? I mean, on top of that, I mean, look, what are the reasons for money, money, sex, kids and in-laws? Okay. Those are the four major reasons, you know, that couples struggle. There are others, of course, but those are the big four.

[00:21:18] Now, when you get divorced, what happens? Okay. Money. Oh, my God. There's a huge problem. Sex. Well, okay. Now you're, you know, you've got someone else's and you're bad and so on. In-laws. Well, you still, here's the other thing. You still have those first in-laws. Those first in-laws are grandparents to those kids you sired in that first relationship. Okay.

[00:21:45] You know, and so you, even though you're with a new person, okay, who may have kids elsewhere, you know, with those ex-in-laws now, you know, and so forth, you still have to deal with them. Now, I've said, you know, many times that with some of these families, you know, you need a computer to determine, you know, who goes where during Thanksgiving. Where do the kids go?

[00:22:14] I mean, it's crazy. So rushing into a new relationship is destined to fail. Destined. You know, I accused one person, you know, I remember some time back, you know, I said, you spent more time, you know, vetting your next iPhone than you did your next partner. I mean, there's things you want to look at, you know.

[00:22:42] I mean, in fact, I even, you know, how do they manage money? How do they handle anger? How do they handle disappointment? How willing are they to accommodate and compromise? I mean, there's so many things. What are their moral views and things of that nature? Those are things you really, and by the way, look at their family. Go to dinner.

[00:23:11] Go to have dinner with his or her parents and see what's going on. Look at that relationship. Because let's face it. How did we learn about what a marriage is when we were kids? Did we read a book on marital therapy or marriage? No. What we did is look at our folks. Yep.

[00:23:37] One of the things I realized that when I was vetting a new person was go to dinner and see how they treat waitstaff. That was a big, simple, simple and big. Yes. Sure. Yeah. Exactly. That's one, you know, and so on. Yeah. I suggest that you get their credit rating. You have them get a credit rating and show you. I think that says a lot.

[00:24:07] Wow. I mean, there's things that, you know, and again, look at their parents and so forth. Let's shift gears here. How can men rebuild their self-esteem and sense of identity after a divorce? You know, self-esteem and sense of identity are huge with men. How can they rebuild that? Because it gets torn down. Absolutely. That's what we were just talking about. You know, you've been rejected. All right.

[00:24:34] So one, of course, is again to grow, you know, to understand why this happened. And to understand your role in it. That's growth.

[00:24:49] And then work on those areas that you know you applied into that relationship and correct them, fix them, and so on. You know, if you tend to fly off the handle and so forth and get angry too easily and so forth, well, you know, maybe take some yoga. Maybe learn some meditation.

[00:25:18] Maybe learn to handle that anger better and so on. Also, the way we look at things. You know, I do a lot of – I used to do a lot of work with parents. I've got several books on that topic as well. And in a nutshell, I used to say, you know, the most valuable thing we parents can give to our kids is our time.

[00:25:47] You know, individual time. And parents go, oh, yeah, yeah, I agree with that. And I said, you know, and then in light of that, when do most parents give their kids their individual time? Immediately following inappropriate behavior. The correction. Yes. So what are we teaching our kids? Okay. I spend time with you, and I'm going to correct you. Yeah, right. Right. Right.

[00:26:14] The best way to get mom or dad's attention is to misbehave. Act forward. And parents think their kids are, you know, acting up, and they're bad or they're stubborn. You know, from day one, they learn the best way to get this valuable commodity, you know, of attention, you know, is to act up. Well, with marriage, it's kind of the same. You know, think about it. What do we talk about often? Often.

[00:26:44] Often. Oh, you made a lovely roast tonight, dear. You're such a great cook. And so on and so forth. Well, that happens sometimes. But most of the time, what kind of feedback are we giving each other? We're focusing on the negative rather than on the positive. You know, as I tell parents all the time, catch the kid when he's good. That's when you deposit your attention, that commodity, that valuable commodity.

[00:27:13] And in marriage, it's the same thing. You know, praise, encourage, and so on. Not tear down, not criticize, and so on. So there's lots of things that we can do, you know, to heal, to become more aware, to become more self-controlled, become more positive, and probably to make a better choice.

[00:27:42] You know, again, my experience is seeing probably a thousand couples in my time, you know, is that either with the first marriage or subsequent marriages is that you're in a relationship, you know, too quickly.

[00:28:03] I can't tell you how many times when I'm doing marital therapy, and we get back to talking about how they met and so forth, that they were in the sack by the first or second or third date. Well, okay, it's not like I'm approved that, you know, sex is a great thing. But as far as I'm concerned, sex is the cherry on the top of the sundae, okay? It's not, you know, it's not the whole thing here.

[00:28:32] It's great that good sexes can occur, and that's important, and we like that. But what about morality? And so what about values? What about a similar goal and things of that nature? I can't tell you how many times I've worked with couples, and I realize they haven't even talked about how they're going to parent. Dad believes in spanking and mom not. Wow.

[00:29:02] Well, that's a real problem. Plus, the kid is going to manipulate like... Oh, heck yeah. Yeah. So on the flip side of that, how can men control or manage their loneliness and isolation? You know, they go into that depression. Well, again, recognize that, of course. Not do what's easy is, you know, knock off a six-pack.

[00:29:32] That's frankly not going to help. It'll help for the moment, maybe, because it'll dull your feelings. But in the long term, you're just going to be more depressed. It's to recognize that this isn't useful and get out there. Join a group. A support group and so on would be great. You know, go out with a friend. What's that? Listen to a podcast. Listen to a podcast. I get that. Right. Here you go. See?

[00:30:00] Go out with a friend and so on. Go get a workout. Boy, do I, you know, I certainly recommend that. Yeah, you've got to heal yourself and so on. But, you know, don't drug yourself and don't rush into another relationship. No, look, you can go out in a group and be social. I'm not saying you have to be an isolate for a year. I'm not saying that.

[00:30:29] I mean, you can go out. You can even have a date and so on. But your thinking is just we're going to be social here. We're not going to end up in bed and so on. Because once you start doing that, you know, one of my articles that's on my website, topphoenixpsychologist.com, you know, is what I call the pyramid. You know, and at the top is the, you know, is sex and passion.

[00:30:59] But at the bottom, you know, are the values and morals and things like that, that are important. But what we're doing is we're turning it upside down. Because once you start having sex, you know, well, he drinks too much, but he's such a good lay. You know, so the relationship gets moved, starts moving forward, you know, based on emotion. And next thing you know, you buy a sofa together. Okay.

[00:31:28] And now you got your money entwined. And before long, you're connected. Okay. It all depends on when you buy the dog. You buy the dog. You buy the dog together, you know, but you never really talked about, well, wait a minute. You're a big, you're a big spender. And, you know, and your credit rating is in the toilet, you know, and, you know, I'm not, you know, money problems.

[00:31:58] Oh, that's not going to work. And so on. And, and your mother, you know, comes over without even being asked. That's not going to work. And so on. And, you know, and your brother's in prison. And, you know, wait a minute. What am I getting myself into? You know? Well, that's now all an afterthought. You're all ready together. So what is the one piece of advice to close this up?

[00:32:24] What is one piece of advice that you give to men over 40 who feel stuck or unsure of how to move forward after their divorce? I guess I have to say, seek some help. I know it's very tough for men, particularly, to see a counselor. But that's what they're for. That's what they're trained to do. It's not like you're getting married to them, if you will. It doesn't have to be long term, you know, but get some help.

[00:32:53] You know, as we talked about a little bit before in our warm-up, you know, if your transmission is making a funny sound, you know, you take it to a specialist. Right? Well, you know, you just broke up your primary relationship and you're, you know, and you're down. Well, that's natural. Well, see a specialist. It's really, really important to do. Well, Dr. Larry, you are one passionate guy.

[00:33:23] I appreciate it. This was fun, regardless of our technical difficulties, but we got through it. So I'll have to patch all these three pieces together. Let's know people out there how to find you on the Internet. Well, my, again, website is topphoenixpsychologist.com. My email address is lfw, those are my initials, at larrywaldmanphd.com.

[00:33:51] I've got several books that are available on Amazon on parenting, Who's Raising Whom, Coping with Your Adolescent, How Come I Love Him But Can't Live With Him, Too Busy Earning a Living to Make Your Fortune. Again, Love Your Child More Than You Hate Your Ex. And the book I just finished, this is now for seniors, is entitled Silver Sex, Insights into Senior Sexuality.

[00:34:21] And those books are certainly available. I'm also available, if you're looking for a speaker and so forth, I present on lots of different topics to mental health associations and to the community as well. All right, Dr. Larry, that was awesome. We will have that at the bottom of the show notes. But one question I have to ask about this gray divorce. Touch that up a little bit for me. Gray divorce.

[00:34:51] Well, yeah, actually, I do touch on that in that last book. Gray divorce is a kind of a statistical phenomenon where boomers. Yes, boomers. Yeah. Like us are divorcing at a higher rate than ever before.

[00:35:14] And the reason, you know, what's happening is that we are the first generation, you know, now 70s and 80s, where we have more money than previous generations. And we typically are more active and so on.

[00:35:36] And so what's happening is that, you know, we want to keep living and want to enjoy it. Well, you know, in some cases then, you know, and, you know, you've been married by myself, you're married over a half century.

[00:35:55] And, you know, you take a look at him or her, you know, he's got a belly out to here, you know, and, you know, he can barely get out of the chair and whatever. And, you know, some people are saying, you know, I only have a couple of years left. I want to make them good ones. And yeah, so the divorce rate is amazingly high and so on.

[00:36:24] What's also, since we're talking about rates, what also is interestingly amazingly high in this age range, would you believe, are STDs. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's as high as the initial 18 to 25-year-old range. Because what's happening here is there are women are, some of these, you know, again, boomer women themselves are still vital.

[00:36:55] The old man, you know, they dumped him or he's died or whatever. Because there are 25% more women in their 70s and 80s than there are men. Yep. So if you subtract, because men die off sooner. As my dad used to joke a long time ago, the reason they die sooner is because they choose to. Yeah. I think it's more of women get sick first, but men die first. Right. Yeah.

[00:37:24] Right. Well, so what happens is that, you know, so there are many more senior women than men to begin with. And then you have the men, you know, who are committed in their relationship. So there aren't that many men left who are available. And of those, how many then are vital? So you end up with a couple of guys who are vital. And it's like the bees going, you know, pollinating all these various flies. Oh, my God.

[00:37:55] All right, Doc. I appreciate your time. I'm going to have fun time editing this episode. So I got to piece it together. But hey, you take care out there in Arizona. We appreciate your time. But hold on the mic here. Bye. Bye.