Welcome to the show - Patrick Eilers. He comes to us from the great state of Michigan and his superpower is the application of psycho-education regarding anxiety and depression. Discussions of the corrosive qualities of emotions, solitude vs isolation, self-care, a destination for self-care, allow yourself to feel the feels, and empathy. There are so many great suggestions and advice tidbits in this podcast. Enjoy!
Takeaways:
Narcissism
Your divorce story
Single identity
Divorced David
Visualize self-care
Therapy defining a man’s identity
Rediscovering the wholeness of being human
Mindfulness
Numbing out
When to seek help
Switchfoot - Every Breath is a Second Chance
Hope is for the things yet to be seen
Patrick Eilers; MA, LPC
Email: bloomworkscc@gmx.com
Website: https://www.northpoint-counseling.com/
Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome everyone out there to Don't Pick the Scab Podcast Episode 54. Today we have Patrick Eilers on the mic.
[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: He comes to us as a master level clinician and a licensed professional counselor.
[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: His superpower is his application of psychoeducation regarding anxiety and depression.
[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Don't Pick the Scab Podcast with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during or after a divorce.
[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So welcome to the show Patrick. Tell us a little bit about yourself and background. I've got some questions for you.
[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome. I really appreciate being here, David. Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation today.
[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, a little bit about me. I'm about an eighth year clinician. I've been working since 2016.
[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I've worked in multiple different levels of the state of Michigan, different levels, I mean different practices.
[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So I've been part of different practices that have been around the state.
[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I've worked as a general practitioner. So kind of working with everybody, a wide variety of age ranges.
[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Youngest client being five, oldest client being 62. So kind of worked with everybody at one point to begin my career.
[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Lots of different diagnosis, lots of different backgrounds, those kind of things.
[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a really good opportunity to kind of learn a lot about what you liked and what you didn't like and what you liked working with and what you were able to work with.
[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's a really good experience. I've worked at a startup clinic.
[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_01]: We were able to kind of start the clinic from the ground up in a new location and had several colleagues that worked with me in that practice.
[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I really enjoyed that opportunity to get a chance to kind of start a practice from ground up, so to speak, even though I wasn't an owner.
[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I was just kind of a participant though in it.
[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And then after the pandemic, I had an opportunity to come work for him currently at the practice I'm at.
[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's called North Point Professional Counseling. It's in Novi, Michigan. So we are in suburbs of Detroit.
[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we are one of Michigan's special, we have a specialty practice in sex addiction and partner betrayal trauma.
[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of our area right now the last four years I've been working with.
[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's kind of where I'm at in my career thus far. So I'm excited for our conversation today.
[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: All right. Let's dive in. What are some of the common mental health issues that men over 40 face,
[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_00]: especially after a contentious divorce or during a divorce?
[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_00]: What are some of the things that you've seen that, you know, men have to face?
[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. I don't know. It's anything maybe so much so specific for the age range.
[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of people when you go through a divorce or something like that or a major life event like that,
[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: you're going to have a lot of different emotions. You're going to go through a lot of grief,
[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: probably going to go through some periods where maybe there's some elation to that.
[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You're excited about some of those new proposals and changing.
[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's kind of positives. There's pros and cons that go with that.
[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think there's multiple different things you're in experience.
[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd say probably the biggest specific type of emotions I guess I consider is that,
[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, obviously you're probably going to have some of the five stages of grief.
[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're probably going to have some denial, probably going to have some anger,
[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: probably going to have some bargaining, you know,
[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: probably going to have some of those kind of things come up as far as,
[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, hey, how do I navigate this new season?
[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some things are going to happen for me moving forward?
[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think when you look at kind of that particular thing in your life,
[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: something like that, that monumental happening, right?
[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Marriage is a monumental. Divorce is a monumental.
[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And if those, if that happens in my experience,
[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_01]: it seems like the one of the things that people go through is just,
[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: though the word I guess I think about,
[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought about when I was preparing for today was corrosion.
[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: People tend to sort of get pretty corrosive, I think in there,
[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: especially men do kind of toward, but women do as well toward,
[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_01]: toward the particular opposite gender, so to speak, right?
[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so, you know, I don't, I look at women differently after
[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe a divorce than I might look at women pre marriage.
[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's some things that may happen with that way.
[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it's important not to let those,
[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: those sort of corrosive emotions, the anger, the bitterness,
[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: the resentment, resentment is probably a big word I would,
[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd probably pick up there.
[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Letting those things ruminate to the point that they,
[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: they dictate what I'm going to do moving forward,
[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: how I'm going to see people, how I'm going to interact with people.
[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: What's it going to be like for me doing, going through and going forward
[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: in relationships?
[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a big part of that.
[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's kind of two words that go with that.
[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really solitude versus isolation.
[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Men are master isolators.
[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: They tend to sort of want to stay away from anybody or anything
[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that's going to hurt them, harm them, which makes sense.
[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're human beings and women do that to a degree as well.
[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think just humans in general do that, but I'd say men are
[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: really good at because men keep kind of going through the life,
[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: but they can somehow remain isolated at the same time.
[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's one of those things where you see a lot of isolation
[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: happen for folks, especially if a major event like that were
[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: to happen.
[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And so what ends up happening is, is I think when you isolate,
[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you have a lot more opportunity to think about either the
[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: things you did wrong or the things that the other person
[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: did wrong, maybe a little bit of both.
[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You think you spend a lot of time kind of ruminating on
[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: that and the more you ruminate on that,
[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: the more likely that you're going to change kind of how
[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you feel about you, how you feel about others,
[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're not going to have a chance to reconnect with
[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: other people.
[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's really important to identify solitude versus
[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: isolation because solitude is much more about,
[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a proactive time of being alone with the intent that
[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to connect at some point down the road.
[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And that connection doesn't mean it's five years down
[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: the road.
[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, but then you know, a couple hours
[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and having my solitude, right?
[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think solitude is important because it is a time
[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: to unplug it.
[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a time for self-reflection.
[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a time for growth, but it can't be
[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_01]: isolation for a long period of time.
[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Isolation, there is no end to it.
[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Isolation is I'm just going to play, I'm going to get in
[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: my Xbox and I'm going to play for four hours and
[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: without any intent of ending.
[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, for older folks it might be I'm going to,
[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, watch TV, I'm going to watch movies.
[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to, you know, dive into some of my interests
[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: or hobbies, those kind of things.
[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes those are good things, but I think
[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to be aware of where isolation can come
[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: into play because that does disconnect you from
[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: our people.
[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: That probably is my, one of the biggest things
[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I see people experience when they go through
[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: some type of event like that.
[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: How can men recognize when they need to be
[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: in need to seek help?
[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, men suck at that.
[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't cry.
[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't let them see you hurt.
[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: How can you talk to my men out there?
[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: When do you need to seek help when you can't handle it?
[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I don't know that there's,
[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: one of the things that's really hard about that
[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_01]: is that everybody's different, right?
[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody has their own, you know,
[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: my level of threshold of caring something
[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: is different than yours and then the way
[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: it's versus for anybody, right?
[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_01]: There's different things for different folks
[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: as far as how they're going to be carrying
[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: their own burdens and their own load
[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: of things that are happening in life.
[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I think really where you start to look at
[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_01]: where I need to seek help is really at a point
[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: where, you know, functioning is functioning
[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's almost like you're just sort of going
[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: through the motions and that depends on different
[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_01]: periods of time and I know the word that's been
[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of thrown around a lot these days
[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: is burnout, right?
[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: People are burned out from life or job
[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and so I think when you think about being burned
[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: out from that perspective, I think
[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that's one of the places where it just feels
[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: like every day is the next day.
[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Days are kind of melting together,
[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: there's no real thing you're looking forward to.
[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Emotions really aren't changing,
[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: you're just kind of numbing out.
[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Men are really good at numbing out.
[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_01]: That's something that I've experienced a lot
[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: as an addiction therapist that,
[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, again pornography is a big part
[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: of numbing out.
[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Alcohol is a numbing out, drugs are numbing out,
[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: so those are all part of it too,
[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: is like, you know, if you're using substances
[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: to really be able to go to the next day
[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: then that's probably one of those spaces
[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_01]: where that could be a pretty big sign for you.
[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: As far as okay, I need to probably start
[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to move toward some assistance and help in that.
[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, that doesn't always necessarily
[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: have to just look like therapy.
[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think there is a big part of that
[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that is like therapy is not to be something
[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that is to be intimidating,
[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: but it is also something from the perspective
[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: of its connection.
[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just necessarily coming and talking
[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: about what's going on in my life
[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: or talking about feelings.
[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It's about connecting with somebody else.
[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And men struggle with that.
[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's an area where again,
[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: from a therapist perspective,
[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, therapy isn't always just always about
[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: hey, we're going to just get to the root of issues
[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: because a lot of times people know what's going on.
[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They just don't know how to necessarily,
[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: they need somebody to help walk with them in it.
[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's really what,
[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that's really what therapists is there to do.
[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's talk about buzzwords, man.
[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: There are so many buzzwords in divorce
[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're smiling because you know,
[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: there's so many buzzwords.
[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So my favorite slash unfavorite buzzword
[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: because I'm still trying to find definition is mindfulness.
[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Mindfulness, okay.
[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: What the hell?
[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people talk about that.
[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: How can a man practice mindfulness?
[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, that's a,
[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that again, probably the default answer I want to say
[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: is that everybody has their own version of it,
[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: but that's not going to,
[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that's not the answer to your question.
[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So,
[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_01]: so I would say mindfulness,
[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think is really kind of twofold.
[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And we kind of just talked about solitude.
[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: One part of mindfulness is being able to,
[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: we just talked about numbing out as well.
[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It's about allowing myself to feel the feelings.
[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, that's a statement that's made a lot too.
[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that I think is human beings,
[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: especially in their culture right now is that,
[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, we want to talk about things that are,
[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: we're struggling with,
[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but we want to talk about them as that's something
[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that's going to gain more attention to folks.
[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of times there's things thrown out there as,
[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I'm struggling with this.
[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a way that I can get people to listen to me.
[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I can get people to sort of hear what I'm going through.
[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And to some degree, that's a good thing.
[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: We want people to talk about what they're struggling with.
[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't want to be fake.
[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think authenticity comes from a place of,
[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_01]: okay, I'm recognizing that this is something I'm struggling with.
[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is what I'm going to do about moving forward with it.
[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think when you think about mindfulness,
[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: it's about rather than numbing those feelings out,
[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: rather than saying,
[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: okay, I'm going to do the thing that's going to make me feel less this way.
[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Then our way I would consider it is that,
[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, my colors in my life are too bright.
[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So I need to kind of turn them down a little bit.
[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm numbing out on.
[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I am allowing myself to feel that.
[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm journaling.
[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting in solitude.
[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm reflecting on what I can reflect on.
[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm allowing myself to experience those feelings.
[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So they don't just get bottled up.
[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: The way I kind of think about it is,
[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, emotions are like energy, right?
[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: They have to come out some way.
[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned earlier, a lot of people are angry.
[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: That's one of the ways that emotions come out.
[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the power, so to speak, of emotions.
[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when people talk about going to the gym
[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and they fight and they do exercise
[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and really good workout, that's energy coming out.
[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Part of that, yes, is their own energy in their body,
[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: but part of it's also emotional energy too.
[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So energy that's inside of us has to come out somehow.
[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Whether or not we're going to write it,
[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: we're going to say it, we're going to speak it,
[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: we're going to yell it, we're going to sing it,
[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever it is, right?
[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's got to come out somehow.
[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So mindfulness is about allowing that energy
[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of out on one part.
[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: The other part I think is that it's identifying
[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_01]: what that power is, right?
[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It's identifying what those emotions are
[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and of familiarizing myself with that
[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: to a degree that I don't need to be afraid of it, right?
[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Because one of the things that men tend to do
[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: is they tend to avoid the feelings that are uncomfortable.
[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Just like a lot of people do,
[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: but certainly men are really masters at that.
[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They avoid what is uncomfortable.
[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And so when you're avoiding that uncomfortability,
[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_01]: you're not familiar with what those emotions are.
[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So a really good tool,
[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you can go right now on Google and type in the calm app emotions wheel.
[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It'll pull up this emotions wheel,
[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it has all these different emotions on it.
[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a good tool to start practicing mindfulness
[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: because now you have something to identify some of those emotions
[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that a lot of people are avoiding, right?
[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And so feeling those emotions
[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and knowing those emotions
[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and getting familiar with them,
[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that's all really it's about.
[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that you're going to miss something,
[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: it can go away or that you're going to make it,
[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, just magically disappear.
[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's more about that's part of the human experience.
[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And if we can harness the knowledge about that,
[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: it allows us to become more whole in who we are.
[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of times people don't want to be holy who they are
[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: because what they have to deal with
[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: are things that are somewhat negative.
[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: There's not always positive.
[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's I think an unfortunate part
[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: of where you talk about buzzwords
[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01]: is that there's a lot of focus on you,
[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: the things that are really positive
[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: or the things that are really negative.
[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And those are two extremes, right?
[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of us exist in some place in between there.
[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So to be holy human is not necessarily just about feeling
[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_01]: positive or negative emotions all the time.
[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It's about understanding that
[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that whole spectrum of emotions is all of us in total.
[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just one extreme or the other.
[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think mindfulness is kind of bringing awareness
[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: to that entire spectrum.
[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: What role does self care play
[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: in maintaining mental health
[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: during challenging life transitions?
[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of my men, you know, they get into a funk
[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and they don't take care of themselves.
[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But from my standpoint, when I got divorced,
[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I had to take care of myself
[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: because I couldn't take care of my kids.
[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was my center.
[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But I had to make sure that I took care of myself first.
[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Self-care is a huge part of...
[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't say necessarily the healing.
[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd probably say the process.
[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think, like we just talked about,
[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: isolation is something that allows you just to stop.
[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So self-care, you have to continue to build on that.
[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And self-care, a lot of times people report
[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: it feels selfish.
[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like it's something that takes away
[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: from other people.
[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned your kids, you know,
[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe there are parts of your life,
[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: especially if you're divorced,
[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, something that where you could,
[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, exhaust other energy
[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to some other place of yourself or your life.
[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think about it in the context that
[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: you can't take care of other people
[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: if you don't take care of you.
[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Your energy is only going to go so far.
[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And so self-care is vital,
[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: not just necessarily physical things.
[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously there's physical parts of that.
[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But emotional self-care,
[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: when you talk about solitude,
[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that's part of that.
[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: The mindfulness is part of that.
[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Connection, connecting with people
[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: who are healthy for you is a big part of that.
[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you have a friend of yours
[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: on one hand and you have two friends
[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and one friend is somebody who's divorced
[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and has a lot of,
[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: we'll just talk about corrosion in their life
[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: toward a marriage or toward their ex-partner.
[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you have an other friend
[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: who has a positive approach to it.
[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It's important to hang out with the person
[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: who's going to have the positive approach to it
[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: because you'll probably end up more
[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_01]: like the person who's corrosive
[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: than you will let the person who's positive.
[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Who we spend time with
[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_01]: is a major part of how we view things.
[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that self-care is doing small things for you.
[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It does show that you care for yourself,
[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: but it also means that you're also giving back to more people
[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: because you're now able to do that
[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: with the amount of energy that you have
[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that you wouldn't, you know,
[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: if you're not taking care of you're going to be
[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: putting out somewhere else.
[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's really important in that sense.
[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And part of that self-care,
[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is kind of the second point
[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I was going to bring up was capturing the vision.
[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, visualizing yourself,
[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: doing whatever those things are,
[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever those self-cares are.
[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of times if you'll experience grief,
[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: they're going to experience a lot of depression like symptoms.
[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to experience a lot of sadness,
[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of lack of motivation,
[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: not desiring to move forward.
[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And so when they're not doing those things,
[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: that's where they got to kind of capture that vision.
[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you think about going back to like
[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: if you ever played sports, I didn't,
[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but I kind of looked back at my life
[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and kind of wish I would have.
[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But one of those things,
[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: like if you play football,
[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_01]: you can visualize your retail players
[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to visualize playing that position
[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_01]: or whatever they're going to do, right?
[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Visualize the touchdown,
[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: visualize the pass you're throwing the receiver
[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: on that last minute play and or whatever.
[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you're capturing that vision.
[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not necessarily something that's supposed to be
[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: necessary, ethereal.
[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's more of capturing that vision in your mind
[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: so you can see yourself playing that out.
[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And so capturing that particular vision
[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: of whatever that self-care is
[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: or whatever that sort of place you want to go
[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: is really important because if you don't capture that,
[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: how do you know where you're anchoring yourself
[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: moving forward?
[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It just feels like you're moving forward in the abyss.
[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So you have to have some place that you're going.
[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: There has to be a destination.
[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you travel the road trip
[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: or you go somewhere,
[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: you always know where your destination is
[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: that you're going to.
[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You need that map to get there.
[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the same way with self-care,
[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the same way with the self-improvement.
[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You got to have that vision
[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: of kind of where you're going to end up.
[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: How can therapy redefine a man's identity?
[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Because the identity takes a hit, man.
[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean it's just chaos
[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: because you go from two people to one person
[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're making all the decisions solo.
[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And I found that that was hard for me to make that switch.
[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I think identity really comes into how you define identity
[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_01]: to start with.
[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a identity in singleness
[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's an identity in a relationship.
[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: When you're married, there is an intertwined identity.
[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So you have you, but you also have you and your partner
[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and what that means, what that looks like.
[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think therapy, one thing therapy can help with
[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: is to try to redefine
[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: what does it mean now in the second sort of life of singleness.
[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's going to look different.
[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's going to be a different part of that.
[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the other part of that
[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: with what the identity piece is that,
[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: are you whole because of,
[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and I kind of talked about this a little bit ago.
[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you whole because of the relationship
[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: or are you whole because you are an individual
[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're in addition to the relationship?
[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think part of that work you can do in therapy
[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: is to rediscovering those things about yourself
[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that maybe you lost in the relationship.
[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe those things you didn't get to do for a while.
[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe those things were things you didn't know about yourself.
[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And what I found is a lot of people,
[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: especially they go through a long relationship.
[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's how much were they turning back
[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: into the relationship
[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and how much were they turning kind of back out
[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and the more they turn out
[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and the further they get from it,
[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: they don't recognize the partner
[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: because they've actually been drifting further apart
[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: for sometimes up to 10, 20 years.
[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the person that they are
[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: vastly different than the person they were
[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: when they started in the relationship.
[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So they almost have to be kind of introduced to themselves again
[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: because you're going to be a different person
[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: at that end of that sort of journey
[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: when the separation happens
[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: because you are different
[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: than when you started kind of thing.
[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think how therapy can help that again,
[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: going back to what you just talked about earlier
[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: with those emotions,
[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: it's getting familiar with those things
[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that are not meant to be scary.
[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: They're just things that we experience as human beings
[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and rediscovering the wholeness
[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: of being human as a man
[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and as an individual.
[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It took me a while
[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: to pass the point of being
[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_00]: divorced, David, into just David.
[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it's almost like
[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: my divorce defined me for a long time.
[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, you know,
[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that's for a single divorce married.
[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And I always check single now
[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: because I am single.
[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: How does a man try to get past that?
[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_00]: That was really tough for me.
[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and it's hard to
[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: because you're saying that, you know,
[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, there's a lot of that identity
[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that's in the society.
[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think when you're talking about
[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_01]: checking those kind of boxes
[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: or understanding that those things are
[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: there, that's something
[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: that you don't,
[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: you probably don't really consider that going in,
[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: consider that after it's already happened.
[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think, like you said,
[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: how do you be David
[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: without being divorced?
[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Because now it's part of your story.
[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But I would say that from what I'm hearing you say there
[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: is that it sounds like you discovered
[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: who you were on the other side of that
[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and that the identity didn't have to be
[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: what had happened to you.
[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It has to be who you are presently.
[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Versus, you know, and I think that that's
[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and a lot of times,
[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and then this comes up in our places
[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: with our parts of mental health, right?
[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that therapy tends to look at
[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: the past and what has led
[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: people to where they're at.
[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And usually people are really good at knowing their stories.
[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't always necessarily know that,
[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I used to believe that,
[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, that was really helpful for people to understand
[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: how they got a certain, got to be a certain place.
[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But usually people have a pretty good idea
[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: of where they're, how they got to where they're at.
[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a matter of acknowledging and dealing with
[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: where they're at, more so than what
[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: they've done to get there.
[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't tend to look at the journey and go,
[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: hey, this is how I got to this particular destination.
[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes, but for the most part,
[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_01]: usually people are trying to deal with where they're at
[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: currently. So like you said,
[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: how do you be the present David?
[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you be David now and not David
[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: of history? And so I think that, you know,
[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: especially for men, right, like men tend to
[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: identify based on what they've already
[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: previously known and what they previously
[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: have seen in the past.
[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So there is that piece of how do you become more
[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: present focused because if I just look
[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: at the past, then I'm still identified with
[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: who I was, you know, before,
[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, whether that's 10 years ago,
[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: 20 years ago, etc.
[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. So taking the
[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: divorced, divorced,
[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: divorced man, I'd be equation
[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and let's say someone's
[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: listening like friends or family.
[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: How can friends or family
[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: support someone going through
[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: mental health changes challenges like a divorce?
[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Because
[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: they almost never know what to say.
[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: How about
[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: just maybe listen, right?
[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's a good point. You know, sometimes
[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: we don't know what to say and I'll maybe even
[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: let you in on a professional secret.
[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes therapists don't know what to say.
[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So
[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: we're not, we don't always know what to say either.
[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's one of those kind of situations where
[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: human beings are, we always don't know.
[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes we don't know what to say, but as
[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: a family member,
[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I think, you know, going back
[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: to the idea of empathy, you talk about buzzwords.
[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_01]: There's one that can throw around a lot, empathy.
[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: What's empathy?
[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I think about, you know,
[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not just necessarily standing in somebody
[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_01]: else's shoes. It's being able to
[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: acknowledge that there's something in your life
[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_01]: that's similar to what that person's going
[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_01]: through. It might not be exact, but
[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you can relate to the emotional part and that
[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_01]: goes back to that mindfulness we were talking about earlier.
[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think as a family member,
[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: can you be present?
[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Number one, and
[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: presence does not necessarily have to mean, you know, seeing
[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: their hole in their hand or seeing there and
[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, it just means being there to them
[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: when they need it. You know, and again,
[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that's what the assumption that the person is going to ask
[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: for help. In a lot of cases, they're not going to.
[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you know there's things that
[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: they're struggling with and you're aware of a divorce
[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: or you're aware of some of our mental health challenge,
[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I think continuing to reach out,
[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: continue to be present as best you can
[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: within reason.
[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, again, it's just, you know, you want to
[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: check out upon two hours every day, but
[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, maybe you're checking in a couple
[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: times a week or you're, you know,
[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: saying, hey, thinking about you, I just, you know, I want
[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to show them here, those kind of things. Just knowing
[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're extending that kind of that, you know,
[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: like a handshake, you're extending your hand
[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and you got to let them come the rest of the way
[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: to be able to shake your hand.
[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think one of the things that's
[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: one area you can do, I think the other thing too
[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: when it comes to when they are willing to talk,
[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: how can you stay engaged in those
[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_01]: in those pains?
[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Man particularly, but you know, across the
[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: board, I would say, you know, beings tend
[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to start to back up a little bit
[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: when those uncomfortable feelings
[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: start to come out. Those things
[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: there are struggles, whether they be anger, sadness,
[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, other types of struggles
[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_01]: people go through and
[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: so when we start to back up, that's
[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: less empathetic because we start, we're pulling away
[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: from that person, we're less present
[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: in that moment.
[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So how can we be able to
[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: in those uncomfortable moments still be
[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: staying present, still making eye contact
[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: still listening with intent
[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: listening with understanding, those are big.
[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And so for family members, I think
[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that's where you know if you are you willing
[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: to be in that uncomfortable space
[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: because one of the things about empathy and
[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: for those of you who know the Bernie Brown
[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: video, the one about empathy
[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: or sympathy video, you know, one of the things
[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I take away from that video is that
[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: empathy is about connecting
[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01]: with people but sympathy is about making me
[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: feel better. Sympathy is about telling
[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you, hey at least it isn't this bad.
[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe that's not
[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: made us true but it's also to that's
[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: just making me feel better rather than
[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: like that make button them know I'm actually there for
[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_01]: them. So the empathy is
[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: how can I sort of you know her illustration is
[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: how do you climb down into like the whole
[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: person stuck in and be present with that
[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: person. So there is some truth when it comes
[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: to you know being with somebody else that
[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: does come from a perspective of vulnerability
[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: on your part and vulnerability on their
[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: part, vulnerability that they're going to
[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: share with what's really going on and
[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: vulnerability that you're willing to step in
[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that uncomfortable space and stay there
[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're not going to try to get out of it
[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and unfortunately we're in a position
[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: where a society that's what we tend to do
[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: right. It's uncomfortable I want to
[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: back up I don't really want to feel that
[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_01]: but then at the same time and we also talk about how we were all disconnected
[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: from everybody so it's like
[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of a
[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: catch 22 in that sense is that you can't
[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you can't be connected with somebody without being vulnerable
[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's just that's just how that has to go
[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. So let's do the other buzzword
[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: narcissism
[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean that's the buzzword
[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: of 2024
[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00]: how can I ask in a lot of traction
[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh man how can
[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: narcissistic system or what
[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: is narcissistic victim syndrome
[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you know
[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of my guys are
[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: saying that my
[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: my soon to be ex is a narcissist
[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: this than the other
[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's that one finger forward
[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and three fingers back
[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: it's all over the place can you
[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: put some light on that for us
[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_01]: actually I haven't heard that one
[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: before that's a new one
[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever one that you just said there's one I heard not too long ago rejection
[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: sensitive dysphoria as well
[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I was a new one to me too but
[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. So again
[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_01]: there's it's almost like we're getting into like
[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: there's these now we're kind of breaking from like
[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: here's symptoms like here's overarching
[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_01]: diagnostics to like
[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_01]: diagnostic number two and then
[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: so we're really getting in the weeds here with some of this stuff but
[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes
[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_01]: again diagnostics all diagnostics really do is they tell us
[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: what the symptoms are
[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: you know they don't really tell us why the symptoms are
[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01]: what the and it doesn't factor in
[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: what you know being human so there's a
[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to try to sort of step
[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I try to step around
[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_01]: around diagnostics if I can
[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: okay yep that's good we have it there
[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: let's move forward so in this case
[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_01]: like you said so so narcissism
[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess again I'm not a super
[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a super insight at narcissism as far as
[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: what some of the all these
[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01]: different things are I will say this that there is
[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: there is a narcissistic
[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: personality disorder but again
[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01]: personality disorders in general are very
[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: are either a under
[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: under diagnosed or B are not
[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that common I probably put B more than
[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: A so does that
[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: mean that there are people who have narcissistic traits
[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say that's very true
[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: but I also would factor word
[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that people don't think a lot about and though that word is selfish
[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: so where in the
[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: continuum does selfishness turn into narcissism
[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: where does it go exactly
[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01]: so there's there's yeah
[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: somewhere along the way of one side it starts as I'm hitting my mic
[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: somewhere along the way is
[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: either it either crosses over and then becomes
[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: this or it balances itself in that way so
[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I think when we're talking about
[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: narcissism I think there's there's a couple
[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: things to consider
[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: person who's narcissistic probably
[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: really doesn't have any ability to be able to empathize
[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_01]: at all like they don't
[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that's not in their vocabulary they don't think about
[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that right and for a majority
[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: of people people can empathize they just aren't good at
[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that's a different that's a different problem
[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: so I would say from a perspective
[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: of narcissism you know
[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: are there people who have narcissistic traits
[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: or are narcissistic tendencies absolutely
[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: men and women both we live in a very selfish
[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: society and it's getting
[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: more selfish okay so social
[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: media has made people of any
[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_01]: age very selfish because
[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: everything is about what image do I present
[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and so again going back
[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: to like in a relationship I have was actually
[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: in a podcast a few months ago
[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01]: we talked a lot about this idea that
[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: nobody talks about the idea that a relationship
[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: is about sacrifice a relationship
[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: is about submits a relationship is about
[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: being able to think up putting your person in front of me
[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_01]: some into some degree whatever that looks like
[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's all about me what am I going to get out of it
[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and what am I gonna what's my benefit out of it so
[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_01]: when we're talking about narcissism
[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it comes from a perspective that
[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the expectation of relationship
[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: is that I'm going to get married to somebody who's
[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_01]: going to do nothing except make me happy with
[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever I want however I want okay well
[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: that's a really selfish perspective there's
[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: no narcissism needed there it's just what
[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it is right so I think
[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: we're in that position where there's
[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: that we're crossing over in that space
[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_01]: where that's kind of the expectation of relationships
[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and so the reason it's
[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: become such a buzzword is because people
[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: experience that idea
[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: they just don't know how to label it they don't
[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_01]: want to label as selfish because selfish sounds
[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot worse than narcissism somehow I don't know
[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_01]: how that is but that seems to me to be on the less
[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: of the continuum but both of those words
[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: are you know they become highly
[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: focused because people are now
[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: again when you look for traits this is what I'd say
[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you know when you're looking for symptoms
[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: you're going to find so if you
[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: if you want to look for someone to be a narcissist
[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody will be a narcissist no matter what the
[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: case is because you can look for those
[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01]: symptoms and you can find it even if you're not
[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: attending to so I don't know if that answers
[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: your question but
[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01]: it's your sense on that
[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: alright Patrick the half hour my men have
[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_00]: a half hour attention span so we're going to
[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: close this up because I realize that
[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_00]: so you got one thing to impart
[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_00]: to my men over
[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: 40 out of everything you just
[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: said to me with the past 29 minutes
[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and 48 seconds what is
[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: the one thing you want to implore
[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_00]: them I close
[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of my podcast with this
[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: line from switch foot it's a band
[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and they're one of their lines is every breath
[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: is a second chance and that
[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: is true for everybody that's
[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: alive on this earth we have on our opportunity
[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_01]: in the next breath we have you're not
[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_01]: guaranteed to stay in the same space
[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and it doesn't mean that that same space is going to be where
[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01]: you're going to be in five minutes
[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and five months or in five
[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: years and so every
[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_01]: breath gives you an opportunity to move forward
[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and so you can make an error decision
[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you can hear our choice today you can move
[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: forward you're not
[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_01]: anchored to where you're at and
[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: that you do have hope and hope is for the
[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_01]: things that have yet to be seen it doesn't
[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: mean that that's going to be the same hope that's
[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: going to end up happening for us but if we have
[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: hope and where we're going again casting that
[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: vision then we'll get there it might
[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: not look the same as the one that we had in our mind
[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_01]: but it moves us to where we're going to be able to get to
[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: where we need to be so every breath
[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: is a second chance and I hope that that's
[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_01]: inspiring
[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: for those people out there listening. Mike
[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Trob Patrick boom there you go baby
[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_00]: he was ready Patrick
[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_00]: man this has been a
[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: special treat but we will revisit this
[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: again because I had a blast
[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: so hang on
[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_00]: to the mic here we're going to close it out
[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: but everyone out there have a
[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: good night and I'm tongue tied and all that
[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00]: good stuff but Patrick thank you again
[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: for taking time to talk to my men
[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and to me because I learned some things too
[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're going to be
[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_00]: very pleased with the title
[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a good title for this one so
[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: hope it works out