Men’s Divorce Recovery and Chris Farley in a van down by the river / Eric Fisher, MS, CCC, ADHD-CCSP || DPTSP#048 || David

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome everybody out there to DONT PICK THE SCAB podcast, a podcast for helping men over

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_01]: 40 with their divorce recovery and reaching their new positive reality. We have Eric Fisher

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: on the mic. He's a certified counselor with over 13 years of experience treating addiction,

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: depression, trauma, grief, and other concerns. Welcome to the DONT PICK THE SCAB podcast

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community to thrive in

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: their divorce recovery either before, during, or after a divorce. Check it out. Welcome to

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: the show, Eric, and tell us a little about yourself and your journey becoming a certified

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_01]: counselor. I've got some questions for you.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Well, good morning, David. Good morning everyone listening. Great to be here on the

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_00]: show with you. It's a little bit about my history, my background in becoming a

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_00]: counselor. I did my bachelor's psych and psychology at a private Christian university

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: in Tennessee. I'm originally from good old Tennessee and I've been over here in Calgary

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_00]: for almost the last, well, coming to it's actually the last 10 years in August the 14th

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: of this year. So I got my bachelor's in psych and then I wondered, well, what do I want

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: to do after that? Cause there's not much I can do with just a bachelor's in that.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So I did have a lot of relationships with the professors in this counseling program.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it had always been an interest to me because I always had an interest in psychology.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So I jumped in the boat when it came to a master's in clinical mental health counseling

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and then look back and that's the quick end of the stick there.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. What is A-R-T? There's a couple of things I want to ask you. A-R-T, EMDR,

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_01]: MBTI. Let's start with A-R-T first.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what? We're just like hacking into people with acronyms. Counseling

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: seems to love acronyms. So A-R-T is accelerated resolution therapy and that therapy,

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: which I've been through three different trainings for, it changes negative images

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: to positive images in the brain with using bilateral stimulation.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So with that therapy, it's eye movements. What's happening in the therapy is a person's

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_00]: able to re-script a traumatic event. So they keep the knowledge but lose the pain,

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: which is actually the tagline of the therapy. So it's not like they have amnesia and they forget

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: what was traumatic that happened, but they put something in front of that.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So when they look back, that's what pops up more. So just as an example for what we're

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: going to be talking about today with divorce, if there was like an event,

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_00]: let's say it's a man being told by his partner, by his wife that, yeah,

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_00]: let's say I've been cheating on you or I've been committing a fidelity and I want a divorce

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: or whatever it is. So that event could be changed so it's a lot less taxing on the mind.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And EMDR, it deals with eye movement. How can eye movement help in healing or retrain the brain,

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess? Yeah. Yeah, EMDR is interesting. It does use eye movements. It also uses what's

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: called, well, uses tapping as well like tapping both sides of the body or using headphones.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_00]: We could use auditory stimulation so it's like going back and forth with sounds on

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: both sides, both ears. Of course you got to be able to hear with both ears. And

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_00]: so when it comes to EMDR with tapping or with the eye movements, the eye movements

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_00]: are supposed to be calm. And so they're supposed to help desensitize somebody to

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: have a very specific memory that they're working on. And that's one reason that the eye movements

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: are used. Just to be told, there's lots of studies being done. We don't really have a,

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_00]: this is the exact reason why the eye movements work. We do know there's something

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: neurobiological happening in the brain with them. However, we do know that they do calm

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: someone and it's kind of like when someone's sleeping, their eyes are going back and forth

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: with REM, with rapid eye movement. And that's one theory is that's what's happening when somebody

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: is awake. It's like, hey, David sleep on it and then you'll know what to do in the morning.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_00]: We're doing that when we're awake with the bilateral stimulation with the eye movements.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. And MBTI.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. The Myers-Briggs type indicator or Myers-Briggs type indicator. So that's

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: personality inventory. You might have done it yourself, people out there might have done

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_00]: it already without even knowing that's what was done. So it's usually a four letter

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: personality type. So for me, I am an INFP. So introvert, I'm more intuition rather than sensing

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm more of a feeler rather than a thinker. And I'm not more of a judge or

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: a perceiver. So when someone judge or doesn't mean that someone judges, it just means they're very

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: they adhere to like routines and they're very rigid that way. They like list. A perceiver is

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: more kind of like if I go on a road trip, I'm like, oh, you know, we don't have to make

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: like a really structured plan. We'll just go with the flow. So introvert, yeah, more

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: intuition, more of a feeler and more of a perceiver. So there's 16 different

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: personality types. I can often use this with couples and they can see how theirs are different

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and then like, oh, okay, like you're more of a thinker, I'm more of a feeler. So how do we

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_00]: work with each other? And so that's part of the reason that I really enjoy working with

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the MBTI when it comes to personality. Yeah, my counseling therapy experience

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: like begins and ends with five love languages.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I got, man. I am a, a extra service guy. That's what I got. And the fact that I can

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: do that, I'm pretty impressed with myself. You know, one out of five, damn it. I am there.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I am there. Hey, that's 20%. You know,

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I won't feel me. Don't tell me any positive words. Just, just do something for me.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Wash those dishes, you know?

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's, let's go back. When a divorce man over 40 starts his divorce, man,

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the emotions are just out of control. You know, the anger, the anguish,

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: how can a man start to reel those in? What are some of the things they can do to reel those in?

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's so many different possibilities there. Emotional regulation is the easy answer.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00]: The hard, I mean, the hard part of that is actually getting into a routine and doing

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: those different skills. Before even doing emotional regulation though, I think a big part of it is

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_00]: where is self love or self compassion for that man?

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Because here, I'm asking my next question.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. I'll get out of your head. I'll pull it back. We'll just focus on what people

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: can do. You know, different tasks, it's a different task, right? So it's really finding

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: out for a man, is he shutting down a lot? Like kind of like a given up kind of state,

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: or is he feeling like he's more charged and where he needs to be like a,

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: like a charge state where there's the gas is on, you know, he's putting the gas pedal on

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: all the time, or has he put on the brake all the time that was giving up because we want

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: to bring somebody either up or down into an optimal zone of arousal. So really knowing

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that first would help someone know what kind of tasks. So there's a really interesting book

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: written by someone here in Calgary called Return to Center and in the book she gives a lot

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: of good different skills with emotional regulation. And one of those is Soda.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_00]: That's another lovely acronym.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_00]: The acronym podcast.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. I'll break it down real quick. So the S is a simply stop. So if I'm at work,

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I just kind of, you know, I stop, I go sit down maybe. The O is observe what's happening

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in my body with maybe my nerve fibers. Is there some twitching? Is there some

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: upset sensations? Is there some, is there some feelings getting up? So observe.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the D is detach and to detach, just doing some deep breaths and breathing

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: a little longer out than I am in, exhaling a little longer because it helps someone to

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: definitely simmer down. So that could be one way to help someone regulate.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the A is just affirm something for myself like, yeah, I'm going through

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_00]: a really difficult time right now, but I'm going to be okay. I want to get through this.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to get through today, you know, get through the next hour.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Great baby steps. So let's go on to the one that you jumped on already.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a big self-compassion, self-care guy. And that was the one thing that men over 40,

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they forget because they're so centered on, you know, they're like in survival mode.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So how can you go through survival mode and also practice self-care?

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the things you can do?

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, going through survival mode and trying to practice self-care. And yeah,

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: brain's pretty much on after a significant event like a divorce, the brain's going to

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: be probably looking for all these different threats, whether they're real or perceived.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So a big part of self-care is going to be really recognizing

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: is this a perceived threat or is this a real threat? So this is more of a cognitive

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: piece for somebody. Okay, somebody's talking with me and okay, maybe they're giving me some

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: feedback or some constructive criticism. Okay, it's a perceived threat. That's not like they're

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: a threat to me. So that's part of it. I think that just really getting out for men,

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_00]: getting out in nature, just getting outside, getting into movement outside or in the house.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Exercising is a big piece. I think just moving the body is going to be big for men

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: when it comes to the self-care part. There was a meta-analysis done with 17 different reasons that

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: exercise is good. So it just kind of conglomerated a bunch of different studies and the benefits.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the benefits was this lets out steam, and that's what they found.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It also helps deal with grief with exercise, which no doubt divorce is a type of grief.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about the setbacks, man. Setbacks are huge. Two steps forward, three steps back.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And how can men combat that? Because that is huge with men. They overthink things. Men

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: overthink things and we're kind of dumb, but that's a different story. So setbacks are really,

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: it depends on what the setback would be. But it's interesting because when we talk about bouncing

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: back, resiliency with setbacks is going to be huge. I used to think there was only one type

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: of bouncing, bouncing back. And I was able to find some research by, I think his name is

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Chris Johnstone. And he actually identified four different types of bouncing,

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_00]: if you want to call it that. So there's bouncing back for sure. So that's recovery

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: with what I'm facing. But there's also bouncing with, which is actually adapting to that situation.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's bouncing forward, which is like transformative with my life experience.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: That could be trying different things, getting curious, which I think is a big piece

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: with setbacks. It's so hard with setbacks, but just getting at least a little curious

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: about different approaches to life, different things I can do for myself.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's bouncing outward, which is I can spread this into other areas of my life,

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: what I'm learning and what I'm doing. Family, work, play, all those. So I think when it comes

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: to setbacks, it's really, it's realizing how important it is just to sit with those feelings

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_00]: first. And that can be part of resilience as well. And yeah, it sucks. I mean, it doesn't

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: mean that sitting with those feelings is going to make everything better. Yet I'm becoming more

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_01]: in tune with myself. Let's talk about navigating the emotional journey of divorce. That's some

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: of those setbacks. You start high, in the middle, you start to get a hold of them.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And then at the end, a lot of guys think they're never coming back, but they always

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of dredge up again. Like if you hear a song that you used to listen to,

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: go to a place, you guys had dinner and I try to tell them that you're always going to have

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: these little setbacks even further down the road. Even years later. How does that work?

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, kind of sounds a lot like grief, where grief ebbs and flows and those setbacks are

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: going to come up. They're going to go away and they're going to come up again. And just

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: knowing a family friend that's going through divorce and he's definitely over 40. But

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: it's just a brutal story. And yeah, I've even seen that with him with the setbacks.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And the setbacks are not just external, maybe financial, but it's also internal when it comes

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to my core beliefs or just the feelings that come up. So I think that a big piece of those

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_00]: setbacks is knowing that. I think it goes back to the self-compassion and self-love

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: he said, these are going to come up. I maybe don't have control over when they come up.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I do have some control. I can influence them with things that I do. Yet I can't always

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_00]: control if these things are going to come up or not just like a wave that comes up.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's just a big part for man because as a man, I'm sure maybe David,

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: you can relate. I want to kind of like Chris Farley, we're going to grab the bull by the

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_00]: horns and you know. Young man, what do you want to do with your life? You have plenty of time.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh. Let's talk about the cousin of setback, hindsight. No one talks about

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: hindsight. That can eat you alive. I should have done this. I should have done that

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: instead of just moving forward. How can a man over 40 combat hindsight?

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: This is going to sound like, hopefully it doesn't sound like a cop out, but we often

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_00]: don't look at kind side either looking back in kind side at what we've been through.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that kindness toward the self is a really big piece with hindsight because

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: just like people that go through trauma, which hey, this could definitely be looked at

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: as a traumatic event with divorce. I should have known that this was going to happen.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It's laying down those shoulds in my mind and saying, you know what? Yeah, I didn't know.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: How could I have known? It's the of course argument. Of course, I didn't see this coming

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_00]: up because I didn't know or I only knew a part of it. As far as someone not taking,

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: like a man maybe not taking certain actions. Best time to plant a tree 20 years ago,

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_00]: second best time today. It's really just looking at, okay, what can I start doing

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: today that I didn't do yesterday? I think the kind side piece is big for men.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting kind side. What can a man do to fight or combat

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: when they encounter stigmas or judgment from others? Guys sometimes rely too much on family

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and friends of what they think. How can they separate that a little bit as you're going

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: through their healing? There is a huge stigma when it comes to divorce and there's even a

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_00]: stigma with someone continuing to be single. Are you going to find somebody? I do believe that for

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: men and a lot of men maybe don't like the word boundaries. I'm going to use preferences

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and limits as well. When it comes to family and friends and what someone's going through,

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's having those limits in place or those preferences. I would prefer not to talk

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00]: about this subject at this point, or I can only talk about this subject. It's very

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: emotionally charged for only a certain amount of time. It's like, hey man, thanks for talking

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_00]: with me about this. I've had all I can chew on today. I think that's a big part as a man goes

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_00]: through the process of how to navigate these different relationships during divorce is

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: definitely having a routine in life with what I need to do for myself but also having these

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_00]: boundaries in place, getting those needs met through those preferences and limits.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So the need could be, yes I can only talk about this for only a certain amount of time or this

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: topic is definitely off. I don't want to talk about when I found out that we were going to

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: get a divorce. That's pretty painful right now. I heard this really cool thing. I can talk

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: about the scars, but I can't talk about the scabs because the scab is too fresh.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's get this to be a scar first, then we'll talk about it.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting. Social networks, other than counselors or therapists, what can men do to

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: improve their social network? How to keep their social network positive? How to avoid

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: the non-positive social networks? How can they, like you go down this line and there's bumps

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's left and right, how can men stay focused in their network search or trying to heal?

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah that's a really good question David when it comes to social networks and making sure that

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_00]: whoever it is, you or whoever it is that's going through the journey is making sure that

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: this is positive for me. This is beneficial for me. I think we look at is there toxicity

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: starting to come up in maybe these particular relationships. That could be in a group context

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: where maybe I get into a group where everyone's just case building about their exes. It's like

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: well okay, well yeah I mean okay there might be that for a certain amount of time but

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: if that's all that's being done, where we're just talking about the exes

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that might live in Texas or the country song. If that's all we're doing then maybe I want to look

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: at a different group. Maybe I don't want to say that at all, not even just a little bit. So

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: there's always that. So looking out for case building, even if it's on an individual level

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: with someone where they're like man she or he, whoever it is that is part of the relationship

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting out of whatever gender. Yeah, they really did you wrong and all this. It's like well

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe yeah sure it could be true or partially true but how much is that going to help me

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: in the long run? So knowing that I can get into these relationships with people and know

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: that they will respect my boundaries and then they will respect maybe when I have to do a

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: quinst if they can crouch on my limits with something is a big part. Just knowing that

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: they're there for support, they have their own maybe looking for people that actually have

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: healthy boundaries is important too because if I'm going to be around somebody that does not have

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: healthy boundaries for themself, maybe they talk a lot about things that maybe I don't need

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: to know about a little bit more than what I think is

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: preferable, that's beneficial. Then it's like well maybe I need to reconsider how often I

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: hang with this person. So yeah, it's looking at that just doing my research with

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: a group for sure, looking at reviews if it's going to be a certain group and not having

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: to commit to something for six months off the bat. Maybe being able to do a drop-in would be

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: beneficial for a group. I'm not sure if that's answering the question or not.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_01]: LW – On the other podcast, the Divorce Devil podcast with Rachel, we talk about your divorce

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: story. What do people say to other people when they talk about their divorce story?

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_01]: We've seen or we noticed that the divorce story changes from the beginning, middle to the

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: end because you're pissed at the beginning so your divorce story is negative. Your divorce

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: story is less negative in the middle. How can a man go through his divorce story? Because

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes that can define you or you think it defines you but it doesn't.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you speak to that? It's a good one, huh?

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: CB – It's a good one, yeah. That might have stumped me.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: That's definitely a challenging question. Yeah, going through my divorce story without it

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: goes to different meetings with Alcoholics Anonymous and also with Narcotics Anonymous.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of times I go there during a birthday meeting when someone's celebrating their next

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: year of sobriety or it's kind of like someone's going to tell their story of sobriety.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting to hear it after they've been – and I'm just going to use this

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: example and then I'll swing back to divorce – being able to see after so many years that

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: it becomes a story for them that still resonates emotionally but it's not as emotionally charged

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: as in the beginning. I've worked with people that are in recovery and

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and just yeah, I mean the person that I'm thinking of, yeah, she's been through divorce

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_00]: as well. It's just being able to see just the resilience of that. So I believe that

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_00]: it's just maybe for the first time they tell their story, it's going to be very emotional

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_00]: in charge. It's going to be really difficult to get through that. I can only surmise that

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: it's going to be different for each person and there might be certain parts that resonate

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_00]: more strongly than others. So I think that the more that somebody is able to work on themselves

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: with self-care, the more that the person knows that my history is – like my past is my

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: history, it's not my identity. I think just keeping that mantra is going to be really huge.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_00]: What I've been through in my past, it's going to be my history. It does not have to be my identity

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: moving forward. So I think just using an affirmation, you know what early in

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_00]: divorce care, early in divorce recovery, that might have to be a daily mantra for somebody

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and when they're telling their story, that might be a mantra that has to be kind of

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: meditated on and then definitely reflected on later. So just keep it in mind that whatever

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: behaviors, they're verbs. They're not nouns. We're nouns. You and I, David, we're a person,

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00]: place or thing. So I think keeping that in mind too when I talk about my story

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and these different behaviors and just different things that happen, a lot of it is

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00]: verbiage and actions that doesn't define me.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And then another part of that or maybe a segue is we talk about sense of identity.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're married, you're two people, you're split, you move out, you're one person. That

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_01]: sense of identity changes and a lot of people can't handle that. What's a good way to get

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: that sense of identity back or realizing you have to accept your new identity basically?

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Yeah. That's part of the grieving process as far as accepting that this is

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: my new identity, David. It's difficult. It's really difficult. Let's just put it that way.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember someone telling me, I was listening to a podcast on grief and she had lost

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: two of her husbands and she got tired of people saying to her,

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry for your loss. Well, what are you sorry for? This was my loss. And so

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: it's more about this sucks. Just hearing this sucks. That's what she related to more.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think just being around those people, when it comes to those changes in roles,

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: when it comes to those changes with those transitions that will just say to me, hey,

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: man, this sucks that you have to be here. You're no longer a husband. You're a, well,

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you're like an ex-husband. You're an ex-partner. There's these changes in titles as well. So

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I think a big part of it is learning what are my, just going back to values,

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: what do I value? What are my personal needs socially, emotionally, spiritually,

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: mentally, all those different needs there. And really starting to look at tapping and going

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: back to the, what we talked about a moment ago with connections like community-based connections

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and social connections, being able to go to those connections in my life that are supportive

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: for me. And when it comes to children, we'll bring children in here for a moment because

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: they're probably going to have possibly changes in roles. Like if it is an older child, maybe a

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_00]: preteen, they can put on like a parentified role where they take on like a parent role.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And it could be a challenge to see that child give that role away after things start to become

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: a little bit more stable after the initial divorce. So at the same time though,

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: giving that child grace like, hey, you don't want to give up this role,

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_00]: this part of the role yet. Okay, I'll roll with you. You know, I'm not going to force you to,

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_00]: but at the same time for the man, they don't need to force themselves to get to a place

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_00]: emotionally that they're not ready to yet. So I think a big piece is allowing them to grieve,

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: allow yourself to grieve for what you're going through with the changes in roles.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Tanner Iskra Wow. Tell me about your first book, Martial Arts in Recovery,

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: or what's the book about basically? Yeah.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: John Ligato Man, where do I start? Yeah, so the book is about the intersection of martial

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: arts techniques and concepts with addiction and mental health treatment. So that includes

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_00]: depression, anxiety and trauma along with addiction. And so I'll bring in over 90 different

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_00]: terms for martial arts and I bring in 66 different techniques that I learned from American Kempo

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and translate those techniques to addiction recovery. So for an example, the first technique

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: is thundering uncertainty, which hey, we could even translate that for divorce recovery,

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: so much uncertainty. What does this role going to go back to their previous question? What

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: does this role, what's this going to look like with this change in roles for me

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_00]: with this transition? So going from thundering, I'm sorry, thundering, I forgot the

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: thundering hammers is the martial arts move. It translates to thundering uncertainty.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not actually saying uncertainty is bad, but getting curious about the uncertainty.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: What do I feel with that? What are the thoughts coming up? What am I actually uncertain

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: about? What can I actually be certain about in this moment? Probably what I'm feeling. What

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to do later on tonight, hygiene, simple stuff like that. So I think a big part of

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: addiction recovery is first working on uncertainty. Like man, I'm coming into recovery

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: from using substances or being in toxic relationships for a long time and it can

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: be a part of addiction as well, or whether it's food or sex or whatever it is, it's

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_00]: addiction. And then I'm in this valley of shadow, the valley of, I'm walking through this valley

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm coming to recovery and man, what does that look like for me? I have no idea. It's

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_00]: uncertain. So that's the reason that's the first technique. And then the last technique of

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_00]: the 66 is the denial breaker. So the martial arts term is the back breaker, which sounds

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: pretty brutal. And the reason denial breaker is the last ones because just as we see with

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: divorce recovery, we go through denial more than once and it's very prevalent. So that's

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_00]: a really quick answer to what the book's about. Well, Eric, this has been interesting. Man,

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that was very interesting. And even through some Chris Farley in there.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know my man over 40 know who Chris Farley is, but we really appreciate you taking

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: time to talk to us. We definitely, man, we only scratched the surface. I have so many other

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_01]: questions that I want to give you. But as in terms of time, my men over 40 only have a half

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: hour of brain left. So I'm not going to hit them hard, but we'll definitely circle back to

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: this one day and do some more. I will talk about addiction and things like that.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And COVID mechanisms, that's always a big one with my men over 40. So thanks again for

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: talking with us and we will circle back for sure and hook this up again. But hold on to

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: the mic for a second, I'll close this out and go for it. But thank you for your time.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks David, it's been a pleasure being on.