Mediation in the realm of divorcing men over 40 - Isaac Gruenebaum / Divorce Mediator || DPTSP #028 || David M. Webb

[00:00:00] Welcome to the DONT PICK THE SCAB PODCAST with the premise of connecting men over 40,

[00:00:19] with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during

[00:00:24] or after a divorce.

[00:00:26] I'm everybody out there to DONT PICK THE SCAB PODCAST.

[00:00:30] We have Isaac Grinnebaum from New York.

[00:00:34] He is a mediator and we want to talk about mediation and maybe help some of those guys

[00:00:39] divorcing or been divorced through age over 40.

[00:00:45] So tell about yourself Isaac and we've got a couple questions for you.

[00:00:48] We'll go from there.

[00:00:50] I run a divorce mediation firm.

[00:00:53] We have a few mediators and among them there's retired judges as well who mediate by us

[00:01:01] and the goal really is to make a hospice care for your marriage.

[00:01:06] And we also want it to be the wedding planner for your divorce.

[00:01:10] So the idea is how do we have divorce in the most peaceful way possible and divorce, our

[00:01:16] slogan is divorce is painful, the process doesn't have to be.

[00:01:20] And that's really what we're trying to accomplish.

[00:01:23] So can you explain exactly what mediation is as opposed to arbitration?

[00:01:30] So in mediation it's a voluntary process so anytime you're going to come up with any

[00:01:35] issue each spouse's needs are going to be the other ones problem as well.

[00:01:41] Whereas when you're going to be in arbitration it's going to be about claims who's going

[00:01:45] to be right there's going to be a third party that's going to get to decide over whatever

[00:01:50] the matter is.

[00:01:52] And sometimes it's not what either one of you want.

[00:01:57] Whereas in mediation you're going to end up with the same agreement at the end of

[00:02:02] the day because as much as it's voluntary, it's voluntary until you ratify it into agreement.

[00:02:08] But once you put it into agreement and the judge signs off it's the same binding but

[00:02:13] you didn't commit to anything until you committed to a final agreement whereas in arbitration

[00:02:18] you're committing to the third party deciding.

[00:02:21] Okay, so even though the mediation doesn't have teeth where arbitration does the judge

[00:02:27] can still look at the mediation notes and still make a decision from there correct?

[00:02:34] We would generally and I think most mediation firms when you come they would sign that

[00:02:41] they're not going to take the firm or the mediator and the process really you're not

[00:02:45] supposed to be taking to court because it's for settlement purposes.

[00:02:49] But once we're finished the mediation that's when it's going to be put into a divorce agreement

[00:02:54] and they would file it with the court and then it's fully, you're fully bound.

[00:03:00] You can't say well I meant this, I meant that, that's what you signed so it's the same

[00:03:04] as if two lawyers came up with an agreement or you went to arbitration and you came up

[00:03:08] with some other agreement.

[00:03:11] What are some of the suggestions that you can give men over 40 with a mindset of going

[00:03:17] into mediation?

[00:03:18] You know, that was one thing that I recognized.

[00:03:21] I wasn't in a correct mindset to go in for my mediation.

[00:03:25] I was ready to fight what do you suggest Mention Do or even feel?

[00:03:32] It happens to be like you really cornered the right demographic because men in particular

[00:03:40] most divorces, I think the last one that I saw was 69% are initiated by the woman.

[00:03:48] So men in particular have a very difficult time because you're talking about the average

[00:03:54] person before they decide to get divorced spends two years thinking about it year to

[00:03:58] two years and then that spouse comes to the man and he says how long does he have to

[00:04:05] respond?

[00:04:06] It has five minutes to respond.

[00:04:09] There's not much time so it gets...

[00:04:12] I don't know.

[00:04:14] So this is thrown at you, you didn't have time to process it and possibly trying to work

[00:04:19] in your marriage or whatever it is, I would say keep the marriage out of the mediation room

[00:04:23] as much as possible.

[00:04:25] You really have to shift.

[00:04:28] If the marriage is still workable, if it is you might want to deal with that and see

[00:04:34] if they're open to it but when you're actually talking about whatever it is you're talking

[00:04:40] about custody, talking about child support there's no point in bringing up the past as

[00:04:46] what hurt you or what was wrong at that point.

[00:04:51] I'll give you an example is like I mediated yesterday and we were talking about medical

[00:04:58] decisions.

[00:05:00] The husband was like well, I didn't get to go to the doctor, it wasn't involved in medical

[00:05:04] decisions and he started to do a whole trauma dump about what happened during their marriage

[00:05:10] and I really have to regroup it as the question over here is what do you want to do going forward?

[00:05:17] It's not really a question on the past.

[00:05:18] We're looking for agreement now and it's going to be a different relationship.

[00:05:23] It's a new life post-everse, it's a new chapter and if you could get to agreement what's

[00:05:31] going to happen in the future, the past didn't work out so let's not harp on the past.

[00:05:37] Let's say that you mediate and both parties agree what's the next step?

[00:05:42] Does it go to the courts and does it get ratified or that one word?

[00:05:47] What happens next?

[00:05:49] We saw this because what our clients really were looking for so we had a few transitions

[00:05:56] how we did it.

[00:05:59] We incorporated that we would help you outfiling the full process that you would never have

[00:06:04] to step into court.

[00:06:06] We would prepare the whole divorce agreement but to be more specific, we give after each

[00:06:11] session which is about two hours we give them a summary and we would not schedule a session

[00:06:16] for a week.

[00:06:18] They would wait a week before the next session so they really have time to think about it.

[00:06:22] Once they finalize the final summary that's when it would be turned into a divorce agreement

[00:06:28] and they would be able to file, we would be able to help them with filing that divorce

[00:06:32] agreement.

[00:06:33] Then we have to go figure out I'm going to start with this lawyer with that lawyer,

[00:06:38] a filing service or going to the court.

[00:06:41] We have everything taken care of you from beginning to end.

[00:06:45] If you're in a mediation and you've probably been through this, what happens when it goes

[00:06:50] south?

[00:06:51] Do you try to write the ship at what point do you know is not going to work?

[00:06:57] I guess we have to define going south because there's a few different ways that it goes

[00:07:01] south but let's use the example of go south that one, let's just say the husband says he's

[00:07:08] willing to give a thousand dollars child support the wife says she wants fifteen hundred

[00:07:12] and it's a standstill.

[00:07:15] We try to get to the underneath like what is it that you're looking for or whatever, right?

[00:07:20] There's no budget.

[00:07:21] That's where they're at.

[00:07:23] So then what we would do is we would open up okay so where do you want to go from here

[00:07:29] and we would just sit with that and then okay one of them might say well then let's go

[00:07:35] to court okay what would happen in court?

[00:07:39] Now a lot of times that one story in particular that's like striping me as you know the right

[00:07:45] example here is that the wife was claiming that the husband's business was earning way

[00:07:51] more than what he was saying it was earning and we had this discussion about okay so where

[00:07:57] do we go from here?

[00:07:58] Okay, we're going to go to court.

[00:07:59] So what would happen in court?

[00:08:01] Oh okay they're going to do a financial analysis, right?

[00:08:05] Do you want to just do a financial analysis yourself or are you open to opening up all

[00:08:09] your books of your business?

[00:08:11] And the husband said yeah I'm open to opening it up but she has to pay for the financial

[00:08:15] analysis, right?

[00:08:17] So you could go to places where the numbers we know the numbers, right?

[00:08:21] There's the calculator so we know how the numbers are going to run in court.

[00:08:26] So then it's really just the question of why can't you do that process yourself and sometimes

[00:08:32] you can't.

[00:08:33] I'm not saying everything is resolvable but when you just sit with it okay so then we'll

[00:08:37] go to court.

[00:08:38] Now you have to decide it's in your power, you're going to make these decisions, it's up

[00:08:42] to you.

[00:08:43] Yeah, so how can an animal 40 go into divorce use mediation as a positive tool?

[00:08:50] To accept it versus...

[00:08:52] Of course it's worth the negative attitude, yep.

[00:08:56] It's all about attitude right meaning if you realize that you know this is a process that

[00:09:01] you're lucky enough that your spouse is willing to come to mediation and have these conversations,

[00:09:07] this is where you can really have a proper relationship that will grow up.

[00:09:12] Meaning a relationship is a relationship it's two people we don't have relationships with

[00:09:17] robots so if we did that would be guaranteed you know but it's with people everybody has

[00:09:22] different emotions, everybody has different situations and other than it being extremely

[00:09:28] hard, being able to walk through conflict is the ultimate of knowing that in the future

[00:09:36] you'll be okay.

[00:09:37] When people can't walk through conflict then they're going to be carrying so much baggage

[00:09:42] because there's no guarantee anymore.

[00:09:46] How are relationships going to work in the future if you just think that there are bad

[00:09:50] people or people that you've fallen with, people change right?

[00:09:54] So we have to change our mindset and drop.

[00:09:58] I'll share with you in, you know, I think a little bit you're touching on carrying

[00:10:04] the pain of a marriage failing and we have two different approaches that work with men

[00:10:12] very well.

[00:10:13] One is just the concept of the marriage equation.

[00:10:17] So the marriage equation is just the logical way of thinking of a breakdown of a marriage.

[00:10:22] It's not very emotional but from a mediator which we're really you know just surface level

[00:10:27] we're not here to do therapy but explaining the idea of a marriage is really the equation

[00:10:33] of what does it mean to you to be a husband, what does it mean to you to be a wife, what

[00:10:37] does it mean marriage and what does it mean for your spouse.

[00:10:41] Now if they match up great you got a marriage.

[00:10:44] If they don't match up is anyone looking to change it that you fit into each other and

[00:10:49] if nobody's looking to change it this equation does not work out.

[00:10:54] So it's not going to work out.

[00:10:56] I mean we go point fingers for what each one did and there's a lot of fingers to point

[00:11:01] but thinking about it in this equation way helps people really you know take it in that

[00:11:10] this is not a marriage, this is not going to work and then I can move forward.

[00:11:15] Obviously there's more to the healing but I think initially not thinking about if

[00:11:20] I didn't do that or if they would only do whatever and whatever.

[00:11:26] But there's another technique which is more I would say using mediation and it's very

[00:11:33] common where someone would say well I think if exo-anzy happened then I would be able

[00:11:38] to work out the marriage and we would ask permission before doing this but we would

[00:11:43] ask them are you okay us having this conversation taking a few minutes and what we would do is

[00:11:49] we would ask the husband is there anything that you would want to say to your wife that

[00:11:54] would change your mind on getting divorced.

[00:11:56] Yeah okay he goes for it, he says well you know I'm going to start being home earlier

[00:12:02] and then we would turn to him and say okay did that change it for you?

[00:12:07] No that didn't change it for me okay is there anything else that you would like to say

[00:12:11] and we would go back and forth and just have this conversation just that we could process

[00:12:17] that this is really over and that we're both at peace with it.

[00:12:21] So again it's not like the ultimate therapy, it's not the best thing in the world but I feel

[00:12:26] like sometimes when it's you know just the communication is not there and we could take

[00:12:33] a few minutes and go through this it helps people move on past it.

[00:12:40] So you are therapist kind of you do have a therapist hat even though you say you don't.

[00:12:45] I say that the difference between therapy and mediation therapy is to make someone healthy

[00:12:51] and mediation is just a healthy process so it's a healthy conversation not necessarily

[00:12:59] other parties really going to be healthy and that's fine but we want to just offer you

[00:13:04] a really healthy process and that's true when you have unhealthy people or you know manipulation

[00:13:10] and narcissists are terms that we throw around in the worst and if you count that every

[00:13:18] you know how many narcissists are there in the world statistically and how many of them

[00:13:22] are in the worst there's more in our system the worst than they're in the world but what

[00:13:28] we do and whenever anyone asks me about that it's like yeah of course we deal with

[00:13:33] narcissists but exactly the same way as with anyone else.

[00:13:38] So we just have it's the same table you both have to be there, you both have to come forward

[00:13:44] with what you're asking for.

[00:13:46] Same process if you could follow the process we can help you if you can't follow the process

[00:13:52] it won't work out.

[00:13:54] So compared to when you started and now as you become a better conductor your skills get

[00:14:02] better and better what some of the things you've come across that have kind of like like

[00:14:07] whoa wait a minute you know like generally of course what if shaking you to your core

[00:14:12] a little bit where you had to stand back and say wait a minute I wasn't ready for that.

[00:14:18] One of the things that came up and this is from a training that I took and it really like

[00:14:23] me and we appreciate training so much this one piece of advice.

[00:14:27] When we start out with a custody question okay how are we going to work out custody?

[00:14:34] How would I'm going to ask you first like how would you envision that conversation the

[00:14:39] mediator opening up that conversation.

[00:14:42] Maybe as to the first party how do you want to have a co-parenting you know you keep

[00:14:46] it open ended.

[00:14:47] Right so that would be the typical way that someone would open it.

[00:14:52] So we do now and this is from a training that I took was okay so before we start talking

[00:14:59] about custody let me get down what is your schedule.

[00:15:02] Okay I work from 6 a.m. I have to be out of the house and then I'm home back at 630

[00:15:10] okay what's your schedule?

[00:15:12] What's the children's schedule and as we discuss it that way custody figures itself out

[00:15:19] like there's you could ask them okay is any of that changing.

[00:15:23] And now we don't have to, we first put out the factual setup of this family.

[00:15:32] You have all the time like I'm a waiter I'm going to be out you know nights I'm a drummer

[00:15:37] musician you know a barber they're going to be out Friday until you know until really

[00:15:43] late or we had a doctor that they work every Saturday so you're not going to be having

[00:15:50] those weekends until you're all from work and that's just given.

[00:15:54] We don't have to get into how much percentage each person has.

[00:16:00] So you set the stage first before you ask the question.

[00:16:04] Very interesting yep so have you seen where you come across people using the kids as

[00:16:13] ponds that drives me nuts by the way.

[00:16:15] In Colorado we have a a mandatory training or you know we're going to do a voice you have

[00:16:22] to watch this movie that was made in the 1950s you know you can see the civil defense

[00:16:27] signs in the back and it tells you don't use your kids as ponds and it's like basic

[00:16:34] knowledge that people should know but people still do it because the emotions run so

[00:16:37] high.

[00:16:38] Have you seen that?

[00:16:40] For sure 100 percent.

[00:16:42] One of the questions that I like to ask when I meet a judge or anyone in the industry you

[00:16:48] know like but more like on the you know the social worker type of end of it or people

[00:16:55] that are in the court system are custody bells ever really about the children and I think

[00:17:01] it's a really strong question and I don't know the answer myself but I think that there's

[00:17:08] a good argument to say that custody bells are never about the child.

[00:17:14] You know people are using the child as ponds and the child it's not it's not their place

[00:17:20] and then they're like you know one of them might be like okay so then let's ask the child

[00:17:24] and now we're turning the child into the parent like if we really just approached it from

[00:17:29] being able to be there for the child it would be a different world but I would say is

[00:17:34] that what's triggering to me a lot is when someone says well it's best for our child

[00:17:41] to do it this way and the other parent feels exactly that is it like no it's best for

[00:17:47] the child to do it this way and I would ask them like okay so what is this based on

[00:17:52] like is it this based on parent intuition or is this based on like you know from speaking

[00:17:57] to a social worker or something and a lot of times they can move past and they could be

[00:18:02] like okay if we go to the social worker and the social worker says this then we'll be able

[00:18:07] to follow whatever it is that they guide us to do I have right now there's a couple that they're

[00:18:14] deciding whether to tell their children that they're getting divorced and then live together

[00:18:18] for another two months or tell the children they're getting divorced and move out you know

[00:18:24] within a week and each one says a different thing it is either one right I have no clue which

[00:18:31] I'm going to tell you the kids already know the kids already know oh yeah yeah I'm just

[00:18:39] there like two and three oh yeah kids are smart people don't realize kids are smart yeah yeah

[00:18:45] you know that kid thing is so important to some people and I was talking to my co-host the other day

[00:18:53] and a lot of things we see on Facebook I'm a couple of Facebook groups and reddits and where the

[00:18:59] the husband has a hard time with the child being raised by the ex-wife's girlfriend and there was one

[00:19:08] reddit where the ex-girlfriend I mean ex-wife was having the boyfriend having the daughter called

[00:19:15] him daddy so you know there's all those myriad of questions we don't have control so what does

[00:19:22] that go on it swing into this how does control play a part in the mediation because that can

[00:19:28] that can be a real stopgab sometime when there's a controlling parents um

[00:19:36] it goes a few different ways um but one way that it goes is that someone was controlling

[00:19:41] them in the past and they were always the parent that did everything and now they're trying to

[00:19:46] continue controlling you can't everyone has to be the king of their own castle now at the same time

[00:19:52] you want the arrangement to work out um I would say particularly and this is something that i'm

[00:19:59] very in the trenches of because we have so many cases like this where one spouse is not religious

[00:20:05] anymore and one is still religious and now how do they raise their children and how do they

[00:20:10] figure this out and some people take the approach well i'm gonna dictate everything that's gonna

[00:20:15] happen in your house so they have to follow the religion when they're by you they have to do

[00:20:22] a certain level if you're working together and you're doing it to work together it works

[00:20:28] but at some level you're just too controlling now the other end of it is you can't expect someone

[00:20:36] to be different than what they were during their marriage so don't think that you're gonna wake up

[00:20:40] and all of a sudden you have a different person here you don't you know we're going through divorce

[00:20:45] in marriage we have to agree in divorce we could disagree the more you can establish that it's

[00:20:52] okay to disagree that's gonna you know that's what i want my clients to go away from mediation after

[00:20:59] we're done i want them to both know that we're two people with each one of us have our rights each

[00:21:06] one of us are entitled to our thinking our mindset and we don't understand one another that's why

[00:21:12] we're getting divorced and that's why we're gonna have a written agreement then that's why if we

[00:21:16] need to change anything we have to notify and we need permission we need to actually make the

[00:21:21] swap to change anything from agreement if it works out on a more you know flexible basis that's

[00:21:27] great you know if it works for you you're not gonna change that person so how does it end up when

[00:21:34] the one parent is religious and other ones are not anymore how does that usually turn out that's

[00:21:39] very interesting what when it goes in a proper a proper way what we're looking for is we're looking

[00:21:47] for understanding between them we're looking for as much as many there is beliefs and there's like

[00:21:54] our values right so as much values as we align with but at the end of the day we're really boils

[00:22:02] down to is each parent's understanding that we don't send our kids to the perfect school that

[00:22:08] align exactly with us we don't send not everything is exactly we want to give our children

[00:22:14] the ability to grow up to be what we want them to be able to be right so the more you could have

[00:22:22] the idea of we want the child to be able to grow up to whatever it is right now the child has

[00:22:28] decided any child don't care religious not religious every child would just want you know at five

[00:22:33] years old they want their parents phone they don't they don't care for anything else so they made

[00:22:38] their decision about religion no five you know no five-year-old is you know the example like people say

[00:22:45] Abraham discovered discovered God at three years old that's not your five-year-old right so you

[00:22:52] know they decided already you need to give them the ability to be able to grow up and become the

[00:22:58] person you want them to become at the same time when you have things that are contradicting

[00:23:04] you need to figure out a way how to explain that for example I had a mother that had a tattoo and

[00:23:11] Jews would generally not have tattoos religious Jews and the kid went to a religious school and his

[00:23:20] teachers screamed at him for having one of those temporary like sticker tattoos like Jews don't

[00:23:25] have tattoos and then he comes out and he asks his father well mom has a tattoo like an

[00:23:31] and you need to be able to figure out how do we express that to the child that you have to go

[00:23:38] to this school and you have to follow school rules because you have to be in a framework that works

[00:23:45] not everything with the school do we agree with you know you might feel that they should give more

[00:23:50] off from it when to relax a bit any given issue this is an institution that you're sending to

[00:23:56] so we're going to follow those rules but you can't have that the parents either one are in this

[00:24:03] you know getting at each other and one of the things we did in that particular couple was

[00:24:08] we had that conversation so how would you like for your spouse to respond when something like

[00:24:14] this is going to come up because it's going to come up again how do you relax after going through

[00:24:20] the strife and and working so hard helping people what does your go to you know are your streamer

[00:24:26] what do you do to relax it happens to be I just want to say this because people like don't think

[00:24:32] that it's this way but a good mediation that they were properly vetted they follow the process

[00:24:41] it's very very calm very relaxing there's not much like I have a conference room meaning now

[00:24:50] in my office but I have a conference room in my house as well which I used to use more I don't

[00:24:55] really use it that much now and I had mediation but I also had like let's say we had a meeting for

[00:25:00] whatever other things that I was involved in and the mediation my wife calls me like I don't

[00:25:07] hear a word like you guys like are you still there like you know but then the other meetings she's

[00:25:13] like wow you guys are just loud because when you get into this space where you're just trying to

[00:25:19] figure it out it's just so relaxing and the more that I follow a process versus you know I would

[00:25:25] say early on in my career where I didn't have proper training um then it was chaos then it was

[00:25:32] really chaos I actually smoked at that point you know so it was learning chaos though

[00:25:39] it was learning yeah yeah let me give you an example I had two times I had a couple that one of

[00:25:45] them was a non-vex or one of them was a vaxter and I'm talking about non-vexer I'm talking about

[00:25:51] nothing not even folio and the first time is very early in my career and I felt so much pressure

[00:26:00] and I didn't have the proper tools to deal with it and what goes on in these mediation is each

[00:26:07] house and the onset and this is talking to controlling and things like that they're each trying to

[00:26:13] tell the other one well I want you to read that book and I want you to read this book you know as if

[00:26:17] this is something that's going to be litigated like one of your non-vexer one of your vatser it's

[00:26:23] staying that way that's not switching and then later on in my career after you know I was much more

[00:26:30] established I had the same exact case and I was able to for myself I said first okay these people

[00:26:37] were married they for sure discussed it this guy is so passionate about it and she's so passionate

[00:26:45] about they've discussed this before so when love was in the air this was not an issue yeah now it's

[00:26:51] so let's first like really take this with the grain of salt and then I want to each one of them

[00:26:57] and I was like okay why is it so important for you not to give your kids a vaccine and

[00:27:06] the guy explained it you know each shot has really three shots in it like all the whole nine yards

[00:27:11] of it and then I asked her why is it so important for your kid to get the vaccine and she told me I

[00:27:20] want him to be I want to be able to take send my kid to school I want my kid to go to camp and

[00:27:25] want my kid to be able to go out of the country but I really don't care for vaccines I'm also not

[00:27:30] pro vaccines and then I went back to the husband and I was like okay to what extent would you

[00:27:40] not want a vaccine it like does that mean the the school that you don't choose does that mean

[00:27:46] um home schooling your kid what does that mean that you wouldn't vaccinate and at the end they

[00:27:52] were able to come up with agreement that the non-vaccine parent in just in this case was the husband

[00:27:58] has to meet all the requirements of the school five days prior to the deadline and if not

[00:28:04] the mother could do it so now again I do feel a little guilty for putting people through something

[00:28:12] that may be dishonest because he may go to a doctor and just get a letter for it and she doesn't

[00:28:16] care he may go to his doctor then he said could divide the shot into you know just give the polio

[00:28:22] and not the other two so be it but she she was able to come to what really was bothering her

[00:28:29] he was able to come to what was really bothering them and they were able to move forward from this

[00:28:34] something that seems unreasonable not not there's no need to get bite in our truck right

[00:28:42] Jewish or Muslim right these are things that we don't think we're going to resolve

[00:28:48] the the actual issue and we didn't resolve it but we can live in the same world together

[00:28:54] living the same space so so you said a word that I caught vetting what what is the vetting process

[00:29:01] that's something I didn't think about asking right so obviously we have to make sure it's safe for

[00:29:07] them to sit together um that would be like the initial one but I really think of it as three

[00:29:15] three things we're checking for for a good client one is that they're safe because if they're not

[00:29:19] safe it's not just that they're going to hit each other it's really it's not a voluntary process

[00:29:25] the second thing that we're looking for is though that they can make decisions so I get a call

[00:29:32] random I would say it's every half year we get such a call my spouse is in a psych where could you

[00:29:38] mediate for us what's it going to help you like we we we can mediate but they don't have legal

[00:29:44] decision making they can't decide anything but the same is true anyone that's undecisive to a point

[00:29:51] where you don't know what you want yourself which sometimes drives people to go to lawyers because

[00:29:56] they feel like well the lawyer would tell me what I want you know it's not having the what is

[00:30:04] it that I want from life post-divorce do I want to be with my children every other week or

[00:30:07] want them half the week well what do you want are you going to take off from work you have to at

[00:30:12] the end of the day it doesn't have to be right away but you have to be able to come to a decision

[00:30:17] and the third thing that we're looking for is willingness and willingness is really this idea

[00:30:22] of being able to accept that we're not going to resolve who's right and who's wrong and some people

[00:30:28] cannot accept that some people they're right and the other spouse broke the marriage and they can't

[00:30:35] get over that they broke the marriage for whatever whatever they did they broke it and God would know

[00:30:42] that they did it right you know and when I get up there I will tell God 100% how they broke the

[00:30:48] marriage what they did and that's the only way that they're going to go about it and if that's

[00:30:53] the mindset mediation won't work either and in being proactive in trying to make mediation work for

[00:31:02] more people I would say really moving towards in each one of these so in safety issues you know

[00:31:08] someone's going through the worst be extra careful don't say things that someone's going to point

[00:31:13] and say verbal abuse even you don't need that it's not going to help you out in in the size of

[00:31:20] anist you know don't bash the other person help them feel good about themselves that they could

[00:31:26] make a decision and try to make decisions yourself as well if you're going through mediation don't

[00:31:32] don't be on the size of because it's not your spouse that can't resolve it it's you that can't

[00:31:37] resolve what it is that you're looking and in willingness is really you know that that's really where

[00:31:42] we have to just accept this idea which I'm going to go back to religious people have it a lot harder

[00:31:51] because they live a lot with this idea that there's one truth and it's very hard for them to accept

[00:31:57] this idea that it's not one truth and there's one right way you know that there could be different

[00:32:02] ways had to approach the topic is is very hard for them to swallow so you know I would say that's

[00:32:09] really a point that you have to work on that we're not going to come to resolution on whether

[00:32:14] you're right or wrong well I think where were you 12 years ago where were you I needed to you 12

[00:32:22] years ago I was actually in don't say what you're saying you were an ask you were I would say 12

[00:32:28] years ago yeah 12 years ago wasn't but what's surprising is that I do get some divorces that are

[00:32:33] still open from 12 years ago wow and the reason that is and I'm going to bring this up because

[00:32:40] it's an interesting thing when I tell people that are not familiar about it in Jewish divorces they

[00:32:46] do something called it get a get is a document that the husband has to has to appoint someone to

[00:32:53] write and he gives it to his wife and it has to be voluntary and until they do that they're not

[00:33:00] officially under Jewish law of divorce okay now if that process because of that in in

[00:33:10] situations that are you know contentious you could just blow it out of proportion because

[00:33:15] if they're religious and they're not going to remarry someone you could go through as many

[00:33:19] civil divorces as you want you're still not resolved so that's why divorces could take 12 years

[00:33:26] even with no assets like nothing they could take 12 years because someone says I'm not doing it the

[00:33:32] husband or the wife says I'm sorry I'm not doing this divorce right but on the other end of it

[00:33:39] it has that beauty where and you know I see this with my non Jewish clients we sign the paper

[00:33:47] we send it in you have to wait for the judge to sign off I don't feel that there's a real closure

[00:33:53] moments whereas by Jewish divorces when I see that they do the get I see that they get this closure

[00:34:01] because voluntarily the husband it's like a ceremony but voluntarily the husband's giving the wife

[00:34:08] and the wife's accepting a voluntarily and when they both go there and they know that they had

[00:34:12] to go there voluntarily it's a closure for both of them so even if it's a civil divorce done

[00:34:21] and if you don't have to get you're still married in the Jewish house in the Jewish law right man

[00:34:28] if I have a guy who represents all the guys getting regal to mediation and be chopped off his top

[00:34:34] of his head and we want to throw some knowledge in there from Isaac what kind of knowledge do you

[00:34:39] want to give to this guy to get ready for his mediation some key points there we go the key point

[00:34:45] would really be to think about your future life accepting that the divorce happened you know

[00:34:53] you're getting divorced that's not the part that's in question and a lot of the pain is just

[00:34:58] divorce right the lack of a spouse you're gonna have to income you're gonna have you're gonna be

[00:35:04] dividing your stuff you're not gonna have your kids all the time so accepting that divorce itself

[00:35:10] is very painful but the process don't make the process extra painful don't ruin your relationship

[00:35:18] that you could have as expouses don't ruin that relationship show up for it but being powered

[00:35:26] you can know your rights you can know what you have to pay what you don't have to pay knowledge

[00:35:31] is helpful but it's you don't have to litigate it in mediation your in mediation so you let the

[00:35:38] other person talk you hear them out the more you listen this is from like negotiation books or

[00:35:43] negotiation people are old can I tell you the more you hear the better off you are as you know

[00:35:49] they're telling you their secrets so just listen listen to them out let them talk you don't have to

[00:35:57] you're not gonna convince them otherwise but you're an adult to say what you want to say so the more

[00:36:02] you take that mindset and again speaking back about you know safety decisiveness willingness

[00:36:09] the more you could do for those three the better off your mediation would be

[00:36:14] well well Isaac I want to thank you for your time this morning this has been this is way

[00:36:19] different than what I thought it'd be you you have dropped some knowledge on me I want to tell the

[00:36:25] people how to find you and I'll have your contact information at the bottom of the show notes

[00:36:30] but go ahead and talk about where you are what do you guys do all that good stuff so you can find

[00:36:36] this at concord mediation.com and we really focus on New York but mostly because that's where we

[00:36:44] could help you out where where professions in the law we could help you with the filing outside

[00:36:51] of New York I would say unless you're Jewish looking for a get we could help you out with that

[00:36:56] we have on YouTube a video about the get if someone is looking to do it just to know what that

[00:37:03] process is it's an animated video we have another few videos about adults speaking about their childhood

[00:37:09] going through their parents divorce and what was important to them what wasn't important to them

[00:37:15] so that I think is a great resource and we're really just doing mediation for couples that are

[00:37:22] looking to get divorced without any of the pro you know without any of the chaos going through

[00:37:27] mediation you're talking about the whole divorce with everything is it going to cost you way

[00:37:32] under $10,000 so you know people here in mediation they see like you know it looks like a whole firm

[00:37:40] it doesn't take much time it's a very quick process now just about I just want to thank you for

[00:37:48] this process the for this podcast before you know before we end and I think it's so great what

[00:37:55] you're doing and the support that you're giving especially someone as busy as you with with the

[00:38:02] career that you know you went through a lot of college for that career you spend a lot of time

[00:38:07] for that you know so I think that it's really amazing that you're able to put this energy

[00:38:15] and and and really bring good content you know to the listeners and I really hope people just

[00:38:24] even if nothing from this podcast resonated with you just know that there are two people that

[00:38:30] are sitting here that are concerned about your well-being and want life to be better for you

[00:38:36] and we hope that you want your life to be better for yourself as well and just think what can

[00:38:41] make my life better David's putting his time and energy for this you know and really you know

[00:38:48] to produce content think about it just just think about how do I make my life better which one

[00:38:54] would be easier which one's going to be not just easier which one am I going to feel good about

[00:38:59] am I going to do good for my children am I going to do good for the world and and good for myself

[00:39:05] really there is Isaac man with that superpower of word smithery

[00:39:14] well Isaac we want to thank you for your time and we're going to close it out but I will have

[00:39:18] all this contact information and in the show notes and we appreciate it man we you know you

[00:39:24] knocks out of the park and I appreciate you so much but we definitely kind of have to do this again

[00:39:30] because this was a lot of fun so we'll talk to you soon take care thank you so so much