How to Recover and Grow from Adversity in your Divorce Healing - Lucy Airs || DPTSP #064 || David M. Webb

[00:00:00] Welcome everybody up there to Don't Pick the Scab Podcast, a podcast that helps men over 40 heal from divorce and all their trials and tribulations.

[00:00:07] Today we have seasoned resilience coach and psychological safety expert, Lucy Airs, and she's going to talk about resiliency, which is I know about and I don't.

[00:00:33] Welcome to the Don't Pick the Scab Podcast with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery,

[00:00:43] either before, during or after a divorce. Check it out. So I want to key on that a little bit.

[00:00:49] So go and tell us a little about yourself, Lucy, and I got some questions for you.

[00:00:53] Hi, thank you for having me. So my name's Lucy. As you said, I come from psychology as usual, but migrated pretty soon to positive psychology.

[00:01:03] And with a passion for the bit in between, I guess, that has one foot in psychology and one in positive psychology,

[00:01:10] and that's the ability not only to recover from adversity, but to grow from it, to go.

[00:01:16] And some adversity is really long, so you actually have to find moments of peace and calm and happiness inside adversity.

[00:01:25] And that's what I'm quite passionate about.

[00:01:28] What does resilience mean to you and how can it be cultivated in the aftermath of a bad experience or something like a divorce?

[00:01:37] Resilience, there are multiple definitions. Initially, it comes from materials and it's the ability of a material to recover its initial shape.

[00:01:44] With people, it traditionally meant the ability to recover.

[00:01:50] To me, it really means being able to recover. So there can be different levels to that.

[00:01:56] It depends what you've been through. It's being able to recover, to come back to a level of being that's as happy and as calm and stay emotionally stable and rich as you were before, but also go further.

[00:02:12] So enable that experience to make you grow, to make you...

[00:02:17] Basically, you end up embracing challenges rather than avoiding difficulties, I would say.

[00:02:22] And the best way, sadly, research shows us the best way to use resilience after, and I'm going to say adversity because trauma is a slightly different thing, it's to have practiced it before.

[00:02:38] It's something everyone should be learning, should be just doing on a day-to-day basis.

[00:02:42] A bit like you'd go to the gym to get fit and then you'd maintain it.

[00:02:46] With resilience, it's the same thing.

[00:02:49] If you want to be ready to pick up the heavy weights, you need to build up your strengths and maintain it, and then you're ready.

[00:02:58] So you can use it afterwards, and I'm quite passionate about helping, in particular, parents who've split up be able to do that for themselves but also for their children,

[00:03:08] to maintain the communication to see how they grow what, how they can grow with the situation so that the situation and the other parent don't become a challenge.

[00:03:19] Because when kids are involved, that's fairly traumatic for all involved.

[00:03:24] Very much.

[00:03:25] Can you share a personal experience where you've had to demonstrate resilience and what did you learn from it?

[00:03:31] Oh, goodness, yes.

[00:03:33] I won't get it from separation, though I did have those, but just to diversify.

[00:03:37] I think the main one would be when my father died.

[00:03:41] I'd been learning about resilience for a while.

[00:03:45] I facilitate a lot of workshops and programs.

[00:03:47] I'm a coach.

[00:03:48] And so when you facilitate it, you have to practice it.

[00:03:51] You can't just go, oh, I know this stuff, so I'll just let it be.

[00:03:54] You're always practicing.

[00:03:56] And I remember when my father died, I was lucky.

[00:03:59] He died at a fairly advanced age.

[00:04:02] And it was just the realization in the moment, the practically instant realization that I was lucky.

[00:04:09] I'd had a father I'd loved.

[00:04:11] He'd lived to a considerable age.

[00:04:13] Yeah, I was going to miss him, but I had so much from him.

[00:04:16] So it transforms what is raw pain to bittersweet pain.

[00:04:25] It's still there.

[00:04:26] You know, you still miss the person and so on.

[00:04:28] But there's this sort of level of it's either gratitude or recognition, I'd say, of beauty in that.

[00:04:35] In that moment, it was to me that sort of wow alongside the owl.

[00:04:41] So that, I guess, would be the one that stands out most for me because I knew it was going to be rough losing my parents.

[00:04:48] And I managed to experience it with a lot of beauty and love.

[00:04:57] Wow.

[00:04:58] What is psychological safety?

[00:05:01] That was one I couldn't grab.

[00:05:03] Psychological safety is being in a space or the ability to be who you are.

[00:05:11] It's knowing that it's being able to take interpersonal risk.

[00:05:16] So talking to people and knowing it's not going to turn against you.

[00:05:20] You're not going to lose a face.

[00:05:22] People aren't going to make fun of you and so on.

[00:05:24] So essentially, it's a climate.

[00:05:27] And it's looked at a lot in workplace environments.

[00:05:30] I do a lot of leadership development.

[00:05:32] And it's a huge thing to work with.

[00:05:34] But also in families, how able is a kid to come up to you and say, look, I'm not comfortable with this route of study you think I should be taking?

[00:05:44] I actually, although they know it's really important for you.

[00:05:46] How many times do we hear adults saying, I started off doing this because that's why my parents wanted me to.

[00:05:52] And it's just that sort of, OK, so what next?

[00:05:55] How can we create environments where we don't feel threatened by other people's ideas?

[00:06:00] And I think in today's world, there's a lot to be said for being able to communicate from different standpoints.

[00:06:07] And it's creating that climate.

[00:06:09] And how can it play a role in helping men navigate the emotional challenges of divorce?

[00:06:15] How can you compare that?

[00:06:16] Because it sounds like that a psychological safety play is like a safe zone, basically, where you can make mistakes and keep it moving.

[00:06:27] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:29] So psychological safety is indeed, it's about safety.

[00:06:33] It's not about comfort.

[00:06:35] And I think that's really important to be clear about.

[00:06:37] And I came across it through resilience.

[00:06:40] And the two are very closely linked.

[00:06:42] So you're way more likely to be resilient and to grow from adversity if there's an environment where you can be who you are.

[00:06:50] The environment is something that has to be set up collectively.

[00:06:55] And that's an intention.

[00:06:57] And that can only come, I'm going to say, parents, men or women, the situations can be different, but there are similarities.

[00:07:05] And one of them is that their safe space is gone.

[00:07:10] And what they thought had been their safe space, suddenly a lot of it's not there, if not all of it's not there.

[00:07:16] And so with the psychological safety, these processes do require support.

[00:07:22] But the idea is to create that environment, to reconstruct it, whether you can do it with the other parent and that's where support can help,

[00:07:31] or whether you need to do it elsewhere and have environments where you can just be who you are.

[00:07:38] I'd say it's even more important in the aftermath of separation, because we lose bits of ourself to being a couple.

[00:07:48] And one of the standard things after separation is you suddenly don't really know who you are or who you were.

[00:07:54] There's an identity crisis.

[00:07:56] And being able to just know that there's a space you can go and talk that through without it being a risk for you.

[00:08:08] Okay.

[00:08:09] How does, I'm a big self-care guy, and a lot of guys don't practice self-care.

[00:08:14] A lot of women, a lot of people, they want to fix everybody else first and take care of themselves.

[00:08:18] It's like when the plane's going down, you put your mask on first and then the others, but no one puts their mask on first anymore.

[00:08:25] How does self-care play a part with psychological safety?

[00:08:30] With psychological safety, again, I'm going to come back to the resilience because it's more in the resilience that it plays a part.

[00:08:38] The reason being the part of our brain that engages in a lot of the decision-making, emotional regulation and so on, needs to be fed.

[00:08:52] And it's fed by good sleep, nutrition, exercise and positive emotions.

[00:09:04] So these are the things that are going to basically give us the brain power.

[00:09:12] So the self-care gives us the brain power to then face complex situations and be able to really face them, not just be on an emotional roller coaster, which is what happens when we're not fed enough in terms of forms of brain nutrients, literally.

[00:09:32] So the self-care is critical.

[00:09:34] And you're right, people don't do it.

[00:09:36] And a lot of people don't do it because they feel they don't have time.

[00:09:41] I remember a good friend of mine saying to me once, I remember saying to him, I don't have time to meditate.

[00:09:48] And he said, I don't have time not to meditate.

[00:09:50] And I think that's very true.

[00:09:52] And I'm not saying that everyone should meditate as self-care.

[00:09:56] But self-care is essential and it saves a lot of time down the line.

[00:10:02] Wow.

[00:10:03] Let's talk about emotional intelligence.

[00:10:06] How does that play a part or be leveraged to improve relationships post-divorce, friendships, loving relationships?

[00:10:14] How does that relate?

[00:10:15] So the emotional intelligence is a big component at all stages for two reasons.

[00:10:24] One, it enables us to regulate our emotions ourselves.

[00:10:26] So to know, to be aware of what our emotions are saying to us.

[00:10:30] Emotions, we always talk about positive, negative emotions or pleasant and unpleasant.

[00:10:36] In a way, they're all positive because they all have something to share with us.

[00:10:39] There's an emotion, there's a reason it's there.

[00:10:42] It doesn't mean that the reason you're attributing to it is justified and so on.

[00:10:48] But what it does mean is that it's trying to tell you something.

[00:10:52] And the more you develop your emotional intelligence, the more you're going to be able to have some kind of insight into that and to consider what your emotions might be saying to you.

[00:11:04] So there's that one element.

[00:11:07] And then in your connection with other people and with understanding where people are coming from and friends, family, but also ex-partners.

[00:11:16] Understanding that their emotions are their emotions, that they have a message for them, but it's not always a reflection of you.

[00:11:23] Sometimes they are.

[00:11:24] But essentially, we own our own emotions and we are responsible for them because our perceptions generate them.

[00:11:33] We don't all respond in the same way to a situation.

[00:11:36] So it's our perceptions that then generate our emotions.

[00:11:40] So being able to step back a bit and have some kind of some mental flexibility around how we're interpreting things can help us guide emotions that will then be useful.

[00:11:52] And that's where it ties back into the separation and so on.

[00:11:56] It's sometimes we're feeling emotions.

[00:11:58] And the question is, is that useful for me now?

[00:12:00] Is this helping me?

[00:12:02] Is it getting me where I want to be?

[00:12:03] And that's, again, the resilience aspect is sometimes we feel extremely angry and anger can be quite self-fulfilling because it stops us having to question what we're doing.

[00:12:15] And so being able to look at the anger and go, okay, you're there and I acknowledge that I'm feeling you, but I'm feeling you because I'm thinking.

[00:12:28] Not really due to much else.

[00:12:30] And that's why I talk about adversity and not trauma because trauma, there are some levels of trauma.

[00:12:35] We can't say it's neutral, but most situations can be seen as pretty neutral depending on the interpretation we put into them and how we perceive them.

[00:12:48] Well, we're talking about emotions and those deep emotions for men.

[00:12:53] One of the problems that I hear a lot from men is they get emotional because they can't control what happens at the ex's house.

[00:13:02] The co-parenting part.

[00:13:04] And how do you tell men to let it go?

[00:13:08] You can only control what happens at your house.

[00:13:11] That's a huge one.

[00:13:13] It is huge.

[00:13:14] And it's an interesting one because I have two experiences of separation whilst having a child.

[00:13:24] And so I've been in those situations.

[00:13:28] And one of the things that always stands out for me, again, it's about is this useful?

[00:13:37] We have to let go our own control, but then try and find out what it is we want.

[00:13:41] If we're concerned about our child's safety when they're in the other house, that's one thing.

[00:13:47] But if we're concerned because some of the habits might not be what would have happened at home when we were with our ex, we have to question that.

[00:13:58] That's one of the reasons we split up is because we didn't have the same ideas.

[00:14:02] Is the child suffering?

[00:14:03] And often we suffer because of the change more and because the loss of control rather than the end outcome.

[00:14:10] So there's a really interesting practice that comes from nonviolent communication.

[00:14:16] And it's looking at, okay, there's the emotion.

[00:14:20] Okay, I'm annoyed.

[00:14:21] I'm irritated.

[00:14:22] The situation is this happens in the other house.

[00:14:25] I'm annoyed.

[00:14:25] I'm irritated.

[00:14:26] But then we look at what's the need behind that.

[00:14:31] So what's the need that means that expression is being, that emotion is being expressed.

[00:14:37] And sometimes the need is the attention, is the recognition, it's the being recognized dad.

[00:14:46] And that's really important, but it can't happen and you can't control it in the other house.

[00:14:51] So then you just focus on, okay, what can I control when they are with me?

[00:14:55] How can I be that best dad I want to be?

[00:14:58] And that will meet the need and mellow the emotions.

[00:15:04] One of the guys I talked to, he was a lawyer in Florida.

[00:15:08] And he was saying that it's mostly about communication with exes and co-parenting.

[00:15:13] And he practiced this acronym called BIF.

[00:15:16] Be brief, informative, friendly, and firm.

[00:15:21] What can you add to that?

[00:15:23] I would add, always question what you're trying to get out of it before you even express it to the other person.

[00:15:33] So I can give a quick example.

[00:15:35] I remember once getting a text message.

[00:15:38] It's just something silly.

[00:15:39] You've forgotten the red shoes in the bag again.

[00:15:42] And I could easily have got irritated.

[00:15:44] These are the small irritations that are just worthless, pointless, but when they pile up.

[00:15:49] But I remember thinking, okay, I'm irritated.

[00:15:52] What's the need behind it?

[00:15:54] I want my human need is harmony and collaboration.

[00:15:57] And my next question was, can he do that?

[00:15:59] And does he want to?

[00:16:00] And it's no, that's why we split up.

[00:16:03] So I just let it go.

[00:16:05] With other things, you can do that and then go, yeah, I do need to have a conversation.

[00:16:12] But then the conversation starts with, in that situation, what are they feeling?

[00:16:15] What's their need?

[00:16:16] So when you look at people's needs face-to-face rather than the emotions, you're less likely to get conflict.

[00:16:24] It's so clear when you do it.

[00:16:26] I remember being furious with my ex for taking my daughter up in one of those little planes a couple of years after he'd learned how to fly.

[00:16:34] I was, and I found out because I got a photo taken from the plane.

[00:16:40] But I thought, okay, so I came to a need for safety for my daughter and I thought, okay, I do need to talk to him.

[00:16:49] And communication is, but I needed to be clear with myself that I wasn't just making a fuss over nothing.

[00:16:56] And there was a need he could meet.

[00:16:59] And then I had to negotiate the, would he?

[00:17:03] When I asked him, instead of me getting cross and telling him he was irresponsible and him coming back at me, telling me that's what I always do or whatever he would have told me.

[00:17:14] I could have that conversation saying, okay, when you did that, what did you get out of it?

[00:17:20] What was your need?

[00:17:20] And here's to share my passion with my daughter.

[00:17:22] I can get that.

[00:17:24] So we managed to come to a compromise where he could do it, but they would text me before they took off and when they landed and I'd be warned that week that might happen.

[00:17:33] So yes, I was still stressed, but it lasted 45 minutes.

[00:17:38] Instead of a, yeah, what it could do would have been build up to this thing where he'd go, when she's with me, you're out of touch.

[00:17:47] And I just do what I want.

[00:17:48] If I'd taken the wrong route around it, it could have gone really bad.

[00:17:53] And then every other week I'd have been stressed.

[00:17:56] It turned out really bad.

[00:17:57] It's almost like expectations.

[00:17:59] So you have realistic ones and you have unrealistic ones too.

[00:18:04] So it's like the give and go there.

[00:18:07] Talk about positive psychology.

[00:18:10] How does positive psychology inform your approach to coaching individuals recovering from divorce or from something bad?

[00:18:20] So the positive psychology component, positive psychology is very much if you compare it to normal health, to physical health.

[00:18:30] If we're not ill, it doesn't mean we're healthy.

[00:18:34] To be healthy, then you exercise.

[00:18:37] Yeah, there's all the health care and self-care and so on a psychological level.

[00:18:42] The lack of mental challenges does not mean flourishing.

[00:18:49] So that's where positive psychology comes from.

[00:18:51] And what we're doing in positive psychology is very much going, what do we have that's working that we can grow on?

[00:18:58] Rather than try and always fill gaps.

[00:19:02] Where that's relevant for men recovering from divorce is that essentially a lot of the focus, the rest of the time is on what's not there anymore.

[00:19:13] And what we're doing is we're taking what is there and how can we build it?

[00:19:17] How can we build a new situation?

[00:19:19] Because again, there's a lot of wanting things to go back, wanting what we had before.

[00:19:25] But what we had before is gone and it's going with what we have, what's the best version of this situation we can build.

[00:19:33] And so it's very much looking at people's strengths, looking at opportunities, looking at what they can learn and how they can grow from this situation.

[00:19:41] What they're learning about themselves that will then give them so much more choice in how they respond.

[00:19:46] And I think with men recovering from divorce, the same for women, the children are so essential that being able to do that as soon as possible is going to help so many people because we are happy when our children are happy.

[00:20:03] And if we can't provide that psychological safety for them, and that's why I come back, this is where it loops around that space where they can love the other parent.

[00:20:15] They can love each parent.

[00:20:17] That's the most important piece of psychological safety for families going through separation.

[00:20:22] It's they need to be able to love both parents, not take sides.

[00:20:27] They need to hear good about their dad from mum.

[00:20:30] They need to hear good about mum from dad.

[00:20:34] And there has been good.

[00:20:35] They were together.

[00:20:36] So they know good about each other.

[00:20:39] So acknowledging differences, but promoting what's worth it and promoting.

[00:20:45] So it's a lot about the faster we recover, the better parent we can be for our children.

[00:20:51] And that's going to contribute massively to our well-being.

[00:20:54] It's a systems process, really.

[00:20:58] Yeah, I sucked at co-parenting at first.

[00:21:01] And I'll admit that.

[00:21:03] But once I figured out that it was about my kids and not about us, it was so much easier.

[00:21:09] You're so right.

[00:21:12] I was able to focus on them.

[00:21:14] And you said earlier, I was focusing on myself trying to be the best dad I could be.

[00:21:18] And for me, it was all about creating memories and new traditions.

[00:21:24] We didn't have the same Thanksgiving, same Christmas.

[00:21:27] My ex was, even though we're supposed to switch back holidays, she didn't really do that and kept them.

[00:21:33] I almost had to go from the standpoint where I had to de-emphasize Christmas and Thanksgiving.

[00:21:39] It was almost like every day is Christmas that I had you guys.

[00:21:44] Because we did the 50-50.

[00:21:45] Week on, Sunday through Sunday, and then I was by myself.

[00:21:48] So a lot of people talk about the Jack in the Box dad.

[00:21:51] Have you heard about that?

[00:21:52] I haven't, no.

[00:21:53] But I can, yeah, the image is quite strong.

[00:21:56] Yeah, I see what you're getting at.

[00:21:57] Yeah.

[00:21:57] So the week you have them, man, you're like, yeah.

[00:22:01] And then the week they're gone, you shut the lid and you just hang out.

[00:22:05] So I had to figure out, and that kind of goes back to that self-care piece where I had to take care of myself.

[00:22:10] It was very interesting.

[00:22:12] So what do you tell the dads about they're out there trying to take care of their kids and maybe focus on themselves and not be a Jack in the Box dad?

[00:22:23] Yeah, I think a lot of what we do, we want those harmonious relationships with our kids.

[00:22:30] But we put a lot of stress in trying to get there.

[00:22:34] And often they're less mature.

[00:22:36] I say often, most of the time, they're less mature sometimes.

[00:22:39] And so they need the support, but they don't need rigid support.

[00:22:44] They need embrace support.

[00:22:46] They need people who are fully there, who are authentic and supportive.

[00:22:52] So that really means the work.

[00:22:55] It's the grown-ups have to do the work.

[00:22:58] It's tough, and that's why I do say supported.

[00:23:01] Sorry?

[00:23:03] It's more work than the money.

[00:23:05] Spending money on your kids, yeah.

[00:23:06] Yeah.

[00:23:07] No, it's the work on yourself to be there for them, but to fully be there for them.

[00:23:12] And so to be there for them, you have to be there for yourself.

[00:23:14] And it's a win.

[00:23:15] That's why I work with the parents.

[00:23:19] My end goal, I think, is the kids.

[00:23:22] I don't know, really.

[00:23:23] I just like harmony.

[00:23:25] But working with the parents supports the kids, which supports the parents.

[00:23:31] Correct.

[00:23:31] So working with the dad will support the kids, and that'll support the dad.

[00:23:35] And then you have a system that's fertile to grow and that has such potential moving forward because there's nothing worse than not managing to be a part of our kids' lives as they grow older.

[00:23:55] Because things have been so difficult and they just want to get away and they're done for a bit.

[00:24:00] And maybe they mature and come back, but there are huge gaps.

[00:24:03] And that's why I really do try and advocate for get the support as early as possible.

[00:24:10] It's tough on your own.

[00:24:11] It's tough.

[00:24:11] There's no two ways of saying it.

[00:24:14] It's tough.

[00:24:16] And it's work that has to be done.

[00:24:18] Is it worth it?

[00:24:19] Yes.

[00:24:20] Multi-times.

[00:24:22] And you're demonstrating to your kids the one, for me, it's the one life skill that they'll need.

[00:24:28] And one day you'll not be there.

[00:24:29] And one day we'll all grow older.

[00:24:30] And hopefully our kids will still be alive.

[00:24:32] We'll not be there to help them.

[00:24:35] This whole resilience piece, it's the one greatest skill we can give our kids.

[00:24:41] So being able to demonstrate it to them in the midst of all that, to me, is so essential.

[00:24:48] It's such a rich time.

[00:24:50] And one of my last questions, because this was supposed to be an interview, not a podcast.

[00:24:54] I just thought about that.

[00:24:55] I'm so sorry.

[00:24:58] But it turned out great, Phil.

[00:25:00] So yeah, how that transferred.

[00:25:03] So one of my last questions is, I am a second generational divorcee.

[00:25:08] So my parents are divorced.

[00:25:09] I'm divorced.

[00:25:11] Where the hell is the resilience for my kids?

[00:25:15] What's the expectations?

[00:25:16] Because it was tough.

[00:25:18] Once I started going through my divorce, you go down that rabbit hole.

[00:25:21] Man, I'm the second generation.

[00:25:23] This sucks.

[00:25:24] What do you say to those guys?

[00:25:27] I'd say we have models when we grow up.

[00:25:31] There are things we see roll out.

[00:25:36] And everyone is influenced.

[00:25:39] You either do the same or do the opposite.

[00:25:42] I'm generalizing a bit.

[00:25:44] But those are the trends.

[00:25:46] But effectively, that's true for anything.

[00:25:50] So you make the same mistake.

[00:25:52] There are so many times I turn around and there are aspects of my parents I'd hoped I wouldn't reproduce.

[00:25:56] And I do.

[00:25:58] And I just try and work on it.

[00:26:00] And I think there was a time in history where divorce was way more complicated.

[00:26:11] I think the kids suffered a lot more.

[00:26:13] The parents suffered in silence.

[00:26:16] I think now we're seeing it more.

[00:26:21] And it's something that we can talk about a lot more.

[00:26:24] So I think being able to say to kids, being able to demonstrate to kids that you can divorce and still be happy.

[00:26:32] And that divorce isn't something, it's not a trend.

[00:26:36] It's the same skills.

[00:26:37] It's the same self-awareness and communication skills that will keep people together.

[00:26:43] But I'm not a believer in keeping people together if they're not happy because I don't think that's a good example for kids to just...

[00:26:49] Never stay for the kids.

[00:26:52] People don't realize that.

[00:26:53] A lot of people are stuck.

[00:26:55] They don't want to pull that trigger.

[00:26:57] And I tell people, happiness is not overrated.

[00:26:59] It's awesome.

[00:27:00] Yeah.

[00:27:01] Yeah.

[00:27:03] And on a personal note, my eldest, her dad and I was split up when she was 15.

[00:27:10] I had stayed for her very clearly.

[00:27:13] I've learned from my own mistakes.

[00:27:16] And I'm a fairly happy, optimistic person.

[00:27:20] So it wasn't hugely, it wasn't a hugely traumatic staying.

[00:27:24] But I knew, I'd known for a while that she was the reason I was staying.

[00:27:27] The day we spoke to her, the minute I was with her on my own afterwards, she said, you could have done it earlier.

[00:27:34] It'd have been fine.

[00:27:37] Kids are smart, man.

[00:27:39] Okay, thanks.

[00:27:41] Oh, yeah.

[00:27:42] Oh, yeah.

[00:27:42] Someone asked me the other day, they said, so when should I tell my kids we're getting divorced?

[00:27:46] I said, man, they already know.

[00:27:48] Come on.

[00:27:49] Absolutely.

[00:27:50] Absolutely.

[00:27:51] Well, Lucy, I appreciate your time.

[00:27:54] I didn't mean to bogart you, man.

[00:27:56] I feel so bad right now, but that turned out great.

[00:27:58] That's great.

[00:27:59] No worries.

[00:28:00] Two friends having coffee.

[00:28:02] Let the people out there where to find you, and I'll have your contact information in the show notes.

[00:28:09] Absolutely.

[00:28:10] I won't spell out long websites.

[00:28:13] I'll give you the contact information.

[00:28:15] But by email, I'm just lucy.ayres at gmail.com.

[00:28:19] It's an easy one.

[00:28:20] So that one's easy, but I'll give you website links.

[00:28:23] All right, man out there over 40.

[00:28:26] She has knocked us out of the park.

[00:28:27] We're going to have to come back to this because I still got a bunch of questions.

[00:28:31] But we'll go from there.

[00:28:32] Hold on the line, Lucy, and we'll say goodnight to everybody.

[00:28:36] Don't go anywhere.

[00:28:37] But thanks for being on the show.

[00:28:39] I really appreciate it.

[00:28:40] Thank you for having me.