Forgiveness: The Divorced Man's Superpower for Healing 💪 || Barbara J. Hunt || DPTSP #110

[00:00:00] Today's guest is Barbara Hunt, a passionate advocate for mental and emotional well-being who believes forgiveness is a hidden superpower vital for healing. With her unique approach, she helps individuals unlock the transformative power of forgiveness, breaking down barriers that hold us back. Barbara's expertise lies in personal and spiritual development, offering simple, effective tools to navigate life's toughest challenges. For men over 40 recovering from divorce, her insights can ignite a new power to heal.

[00:00:30] The path toward inner peace, renewed relationships, and a healthier, more fulfilling life. Get ready to discover how forgiveness can become your greatest superpower. Welcome, Barbara, to the show. Tell us a little bit about you, Barbara.

[00:00:55] Welcome to the Don't Pick the SCAB podcast with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during, or after a divorce.

[00:01:09] Thanks very much, David. Well, like you said in the intro, I am a forgiveness nerd, really passionate about this subject because I think it's a skill that we're not taught. We don't know how to do it. It's one of those kind of like mysteries in life.

[00:01:28] Actually, it's not really a mystery if you look at what it takes. There are certain things that get in our way. For me, it's been like a 30-year love affair with this subject. How do we make it work in our lives? Why is it so important? What gets in the way? How do we overcome those obstacles?

[00:01:48] You know, obstacles, you know, and so that's really my passion is to help kind of untangle the mind and the heart because we talk about mental health, but we really mean mental and emotional health. But we don't even language it accurately. That's how far away we are from successfully dealing with what happens emotionally. Well, what inspired you to focus on forgiveness as a superpower for healing?

[00:02:13] Well, it's like I said, I'm really, well, like you said in the intro, I'm really interested in tools. I'm really interested in what's really effective in terms of helping us to navigate life because life's tough. I mean, it's increasingly more insanely tough. But like the emotional skills, the emotional, mental, spiritual development, we often don't have. Sometimes we might find ourselves in a tradition, so we have like a spiritual kind of background. That's great.

[00:02:39] But what if you don't? And what if you are just faced with the challenges of life? We don't get trained about how to have relationships. We're not trained how to move on after relationships. We're not trained how to listen well or all of those things. So I've been really interested in tools. And so my work is kind of focused on like mental and emotional, like well-being tools.

[00:03:01] And this one, forgiveness in particular, is I think a master skill in all areas of life. So not just like your intimate relationships, but your wider family, your friendships, your colleagues, your work life.

[00:03:15] So it's really, you know, your community. And even if we go really global, which I like to, the world. I mean, we are so in need of forgiveness as a humanity. Like how do we get over our grievances? When something bad happens, it's a bit like there's a, the scales are disturbed because we think everything should be fair. We think it should all be like this, which of course it isn't. After you're seven, you realize there's nothing's fair really. But anyway, we still want it to be fair.

[00:03:42] And so when things are disturbed, we don't know how to deal with that, that dissonance. And so we want revenge. We want to kind of do the thing to the other person to kind of get even. You know, we want to kind of somehow make it okay. So sometimes if somebody's done something to us, we think if we put them down, then we can somehow balance up those scales or we do something. That's the revenge thing. But then you end up with this, I'll do that to you. You do that to me.

[00:04:11] I'll do that to you. And then you end up in a hundred year war and then wonder why the world's insane. What are some of the common misconceptions about forgiveness that you encounter? In my book, I write about five of the most common ones, but actually I'm due to do a second edition because there's a couple sort of like in the run up to forgiveness.

[00:04:34] Yeah. It's like, those are the five biggest obstacles to forgiveness before that's like, you know, like being on the track, you know, like this, these are the hurdles. But actually before you even get on the track, there are, you know, things that need to be done differently and things that you need to realize and ways you can prepare yourself to do that. And so, so one of the, one of the most challenging things is that most people are reluctant to admit that they hold a resentment in the first place.

[00:05:02] So I don't, I don't know if that fits. Some people, some people will admit it. Yeah. But quite a lot of people will be in denial that they are carrying any resentment. So they're not even, so I'm talking and they're like, well, I don't, I don't resent anyone. It's like, you know, there's, you know, I'm over all of that, all of the things that happened in my life. So, so that, that is a big problem. And also culturally, we much prefer revenge stories.

[00:05:27] Like we, you know, if you kind of imagine all the big heroic stories, Harry Potter, Star Wars, you know, kind of like all of these like revenge, you know, porn for want of a better word, you know, like these stories that we, where we want that to happen. We want to get even. There's very few forgiveness stories that are that compelling. It just doesn't have the same flavor.

[00:05:49] It's a bit, a bit like the difference between like ultra high processed food that's really kind of full of like chemicals and brilliant salts, sugar, you know, like really tasty as opposed to a sort of more modest home cooked natural meal. And, and because, you know, our little dopamine brains are kind of headed towards hypernormal stimuli. We want that stuff and resentment can be addictive. There's that, you know, we get a dopamine release. We can get addicted to the chemicals inside of our body.

[00:06:17] So, so that's besides not knowing how to do it or what it really means or that, you know, the actual obstacles, we've got this cultural attitude towards it. Well, what do you mean? Why should I forgive that person? They did me wrong. I mean, don't be ridiculous. You know, like I'm, that's taking the weaker position. I'm not interested. You know, they need to apologize or I can't forgive them until they apologize. So there's all of that before you even get on the track. So give me some more. What do you have? That's, that's two or three.

[00:06:44] Yeah. Well, that's, those are the kind of like being in denial that you're carrying it in the first place and then culturally that we haven't got a clue anyway. So the five biggest obstacles I talk about in my book, the first one is not really knowing, well, what are we talking about anyway? What's forgiveness really mean? Because I think we will think, well, it's something, you know, so we don't, we don't really know. So I use the really clear definition. So this is one of the things I learned 30 years ago.

[00:07:07] And this is, I've been practicing and preaching this ever since from one of my first mentors, Kay Bradford Brown, who created something called the Mortal Life Program, which is still going. It's really good training. And, and he said that forgiveness is the absolute refusal to hold ill will against someone for what they did or didn't do. So I'll say it again, because it's like quite long. So forgiveness is the absolute refusal. So if you, if you imagine this is all kind of like, these are our grievances.

[00:07:36] We kind of collect up the things that people did wrong, which didn't, you know, like most people do things that we don't like, you know, we kind of gather all up, all our stuff. And these are, these are our grievances. And so the absolute refusal to hold ill will is you doing this. Let them go.

[00:07:55] Yeah. Looks really easy, doesn't it? It's like, I want to hold on. We hold on to them for good reason. And most of the time we're not aware of what those reasons are. So we're just, you know, this is the kind of what's going on inside of us, but mostly we're unconscious about that. So, but the absolute refusal is not sort of like, well, maybe I could let go. Hang on a minute. Maybe, maybe just that one. You know, the absolute refusal is the whole thing. Okay.

[00:08:23] That's hard. And then, and then to hold ill will. So ill will is any kind of negativity or judgment, a kind of like, they shouldn't have done that. I'm better than them. You know, like it's, and it's, it's not necessarily wishing the other person dead, although that obviously does happen.

[00:08:39] But, you know, like, but just like having a sort of like negative attitude towards that person. And the last part is for what they did or didn't do. Because sometimes the failures are not just in the things they did. It's the things they didn't do. And this is particularly relevant with our parents, you know, because sometimes it's not that our parents did the wrong things. It might be that they didn't do the right things.

[00:09:04] And the same with our spouses. It's not necessarily that they had an affair. It could just be that they didn't pay us any, any attention or they didn't nurture us or they didn't see us or, you know, like that kind of thing. So I really love that definition. And because it gets really clear about what we're actually meaning. We're about the letting go of that stuff. And, and the thing about this is this is inside you.

[00:09:27] Like the other person is usually blissfully unaware of the fact that you're waking up every morning, gritting your teeth and, you know, kind of feeling bad about yourself. And, and even the word resentment, excuse me. Deep stuff. The word resentment means sentia is to feel. It comes from the Latin to feel. So resent, you're feeling those feelings through your body again. So it's like you're re-experiencing all that negativity.

[00:09:56] Like every morning and every time you think of them and every time you pick up the kids and every time. So it's, it's inside of you. And one of my favorite quotes about this is holding your resentment is like setting yourself on fire and hoping the other person will be bothered by the smoke. It's like, they're not, they're not even in the room. You're the incendiary device. And the other person is just way off, you know, probably with an air conditioner. So they're not even smelling the smoke.

[00:10:22] So that, that's why, you know, everyone talks about this, that forgiveness is for you. So when you let go, you're the one who's freed of that, this material inside of you. So you're not doing it for the other person. You don't have to say, I forgive you, darling. You know, you don't have to do any of that. It's, this is like, I, from my own free will, because I'm a grown up, can choose to not hate anyone. I mean, how radical is that, David? I mean, like really?

[00:10:52] I can, I can genuinely choose that because I'm in charge of my life. And the power, if you think about, this is a kind of like a soft power, but it's a, it's an sort of like a mega power. That's why I call it a superpower because I've become like Teflon.

[00:11:08] So somebody does the thing that pisses me off and I get normally get hooked. If I do my forgiveness work, I become like Teflon. So they might still do their thing, but it just, I am not disturbed by it. So that, that's my freedom and that's my power. And that's why it's worth doing your work.

[00:11:26] I've heard it a little bit even deeper. It's, it's like me drinking poison and helping the other person to die. It's like, hello folks. How can forgiveness specifically help men over 40 recover from divorce?

[00:11:43] Well, it's, I mean, it's, it's, it is for everyone. I mean, I have to have to say that like I used to work on a retreat and we used to say, if it's not one thing, it's your mother. You know, like we all have grievances against pretty much everyone we've ever met. I don't think I'm the only person admitting that is possibly true because none of us have perfect parents. And as parents ourselves, we know we're not perfect. And our children will probably be quite happy to tell us that too, of our failings.

[00:12:08] And so for, for men over 40, like you were saying it, when we had our little chat at the beginning, it's really hard for them to, to think about forgiveness, especially when you're in a lot of pain. And I think this is one of your other guests actually that I, when I was watching your podcast and she said, if you're still hemorrhaging pain, it's not the right time to do your forgiveness work. It's like you, you need space. And, and it's a bit like there's a, there's a kind of, there is a timing to it.

[00:12:38] The objections that a lot of people have to forgiveness is this idea of forgiving too soon or, you know, like when, when you're still very vulnerable and there isn't, there isn't really a timing to it. It's like, I, you know, you'd never be saying, it's the same with grief. You'd never be saying, oh, well, you should be over it by now. You know, like your dad or mom died, you know, three weeks ago or a year ago or four years ago. You know, it's like, there's no, there isn't a timing to it. It's the same with forgiveness.

[00:13:02] It's about your internal sort of mechanisms, if you like, about when you feel ready. And usually the time that you feel ready is when you're still waking up full of resentment of your ex and you really want to move on. That's, that's the time to start thinking, maybe there's something else I can do on the, on the inner realm. Because you can't change the circumstances. You can't change the other person.

[00:13:28] You might, you might know the serenity prayer, you know, the normal one. And then there's an alternative one, which is like, God grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change. The courage to change the one I can and the wisdom to know that it's me. So you're the one again, it's about you reclaiming your power. And because otherwise we feel like we're at the mercy, we're the victim of our spouse. And, you know, and, and, and I think for men in particular, you know, like that feels really disempowering.

[00:13:58] Because it, because you're, you're not in your masculinity, you're not in your power and you, and you want to reclaim that. And it's a bit like carrying your resentment. It's sort of like it kind of like you're sort of like slightly off, you know, kilter because you're carrying something the whole time.

[00:14:14] And so when you can put it down, you, you can become in alignment with, you know, what it is that you really want to value. And I think as well, that there is a part of us, even though we enjoy our resentments, a friend of mine read my book and said, I didn't realize how much I enjoyed my resentments. That was her takeaway.

[00:14:32] And it's true. We do. However, I think there's also a part of us that knows that it's toxic. You know, it's a bit like if you're, if you're using another substance, you know, actually I've had too many or too much of that. And there's also this sense of, if you keep doing that, you're always the victim of it. It's like you, you, you never reclaim your power.

[00:14:54] And so that's why thinking about how can I let my, let this go from my heart, even though you can't change the circumstances, this is like a way of doing internal work that frees you and empowers you so that you can then live the life that you want to live. Wow. Can you share like a general story where forgiveness transforms someone's life?

[00:15:16] Yeah, I can, I can share lots. There was, there was one story in particular that I'm thinking of where this is, this was a woman, but she'd been abused as a child, sexually abused. And she, she was in her seventies when we did the work together. And she said, all of that bad feeling that I'd been carrying inside me for decades, gone.

[00:15:40] So, so the, so the transformational power of being able to do that, because I think what happens is when, when difficult things happen. So there's a big, like something emotional happens, like it, like a divorce. It's like you, you're, if you can't cope with the emotional capacity, it's like it waits and it'll wait to resolve and for decades if it needs to.

[00:16:02] But what you want to do is you want to give it the right circumstances. So you work with somebody or you attend to it in whatever way you attend to it so that it can resolve. And it's the same, like if you think about waves of grief, when you lose something or someone, you know, it's, it's, you kind of like have this wave and then it passes and then you have another wave, you know, and it's, and it's, I think it's the same kind of thing.

[00:16:23] And, and, and, you know, one of the other stories, I mean, I can tell like my own story about why forgiveness was really relevant to me. And I don't have a big dramatic, somebody in my family was killed or, you know, it's like there are lots and lots of stories. Most of the TED Talk stories and the big collections of stories are about incredible, inspiring things where somebody who's overcome something terrible. There's, there, there are two guys, two grandfathers where one grandson was killed by another.

[00:16:51] But the grand, the grandfather of the son, the grandson who died, he realized that the boy who killed him, because he was like a teen, was as much a victim as the loss of his grandson. And so the two grandfathers travel together and talk about forgiveness. Really inspiring. Wow.

[00:17:11] When you're struggling with your kind of own internal mess, if you like, you think, well, that's not relevant to me. I haven't got a big thing to forgive. And so this is part again of what I'm sort of advocating for is everyday forgiveness is of our spouses, our parents, our children, aging parents, you know, the government, you know, like the, the small resentments that we all carry that burden us that we're carrying the whole time.

[00:17:38] Because if you think you've got this against your spouse, but then you've got all this against, you know, like we've got quite a fine collection, most of us, of material that, that could be, that we don't have to carry around with us. But it's just a little bit addictive and a little bit habitual. And so my story is when I was invited to make my list of people that I was holding a grievance against,

[00:17:59] I was thinking, well, probably everyone, you know, that I've ever met or I've ever, you know, because, you know, I lowered my bar and I'm not like, I don't, I don't think of myself as the most resentful person in the universe, but maybe I am. That's why I'm doing this work. But, you know, like being really honest, loads of people, you know, like the kid, like who used to live next door, who was mean, or the friend who said she didn't want to be friends with me anymore.

[00:18:21] And, you know, like all of, like through a childhood, there's going to be stuff that needs, in fact, funnily enough, I was working with a client today who had a really mean friend when she was six. So that kind of thing, and that shapes you, it kind of like puts you out of somehow, you know, out of kilter. And so the correction, if you do that in your imagination, age six, it kind of writes what has been corrupted, if you like.

[00:18:47] And so my story is I wrote my list and I got to number 36 and I thought, probably resent my mom as well, wrote her name down. And what was significant about that was that my mom had multiple sclerosis from the time I was 15. And so that massively impacted our family because she was quite significantly disabled by the time I was 18. She was in a wheelchair, 20, I left university to come home to look after her and my brother and my dad.

[00:19:11] You know, so it was a big deal that she was ill and she stayed ill until she died when I was 30. But admitting that I was resenting her for that, there was a lot of shame in that. And that's kind of like my invitation is for us to admit, yeah, I really resent my spouse. I really do. I resent my kids for being annoying. I resent my, you know, blah, blah, blah, my best friend or, you know.

[00:19:37] And it's not a big deal, but it's just like there's trash that's collecting all the time. If you think about your, the bins in the kitchen, you know, it's like just little things. But then if it piles up in the kitchen and you never do anything about it, you end up with this massive big heap of, you know, detritus that's rotting. But you never clean it out. Whereas we do that with our bins. We take them out and somebody collects them and it gets recycled. You know, but we don't do that with our emotional stuff.

[00:20:06] Wow. This is a blast. Yeah. How does forgiveness impact physical health and emotional well-being? There's, there's so many different ways it can affect it. What are some of the ways? Yeah, massively. Well, the biggest one really is, is cortisol is like higher stress levels. And I think this particularly applies for men because they maybe don't have the same outlets that women do.

[00:20:31] You know, like there's, there's, there's much more difficulty for men to have an emotional conversation. You know, some men are in groups and, you know, which is fantastic. But most people, they kind of button down and just get on with it. And then, I mean, because I work with men quite often. And often there is a stuck, like a really young version that's afraid or like hasn't had their needs met or has kind of taken on more responsibility than they should have done in their families.

[00:20:58] Or, you know, there's often something that needs to have that kind of like correction. And then there's all the current stuff. And so, and I really love process work. That's why I like this kind of work is because it's a way of dealing with it. That's not like being in therapy for years and years. And it's, it's not about let's talk about it. Cause that, like, I think again, in one of your podcasts, it doesn't, it doesn't really work for men to just talk about it. That's how women work stuff out, men, not so much.

[00:21:27] So to have a process, it's like a way to work through this stuff. So I have a seven step process. It takes 90 minutes and you attend to maybe one person in that process. But often there's more than one person that like, you know, you might not have 36 people on your list, but you might have six. And so I, you know, offer work to do like three or six sessions with people to kind of like clear that stuff out. But I like it because it's efficient. And then you're also learning something that you can then do going forward.

[00:21:57] So back to your question about the physical thing. So there's cortisol and, and like, basically that raises your blood pressure and, you know, it can kind of like, you know, like the, if you think about the heart as well, cause that's the, that is our emotional center as well. So it's not really just on the physical thing, but when you're, when you're holding, it's a bit like your heart contracts cause you're holding the resentment. It means that it's not available for the other pleasures in life.

[00:22:24] Or, you know, if you think about your, the paper guide on your printer, you can't just pull one side in, they both go in. So if you're contracting because you're, you know, feeling angry or afraid or let down or hurt, it's like it kind of contracts your, so that's on the emotional level more. But I think there is a, an emotional, I mean, a physical counterpart. And then as well, there's a physical, you know, like sometimes people lose sleep, you know, because it's on their mind the whole time.

[00:22:50] And, you know, this kind of like, I have to live with that the whole, I can't, how do I, I want to correct it, but I can't change it. So, and if we don't have the skills to make that kind of balance up, then you're in this sense of, of incompletion the whole time, which creates a lot of stress in the body. And then also it can be that you then misuse other substances, you might drink more than you want to, or you might, you know, like distract yourself with other, you know, activities.

[00:23:17] So it's just, you know, there's, there's things that you can see in yourself that's not healthy, that are compensating for this rather than doing the work, which then makes that, it's like, it's not uncomfortable in you anymore because you found your way to become at peace with it. What are some of the key principles of your forgiveness made easy process? That sounds pretty interesting. Yeah. There's a, there's a few.

[00:23:42] My main intention with the book and with my work was to make it easy. So forgiveness is not easy. It's a really challenging thing. It's like, we, we don't, we don't even know. It's a bit like trying to do a really tricky kind of like dance maneuver or a yoga move. It's like, we don't even know where the muscles are. Somebody saying do this. And it's, I think it's the same. It's like, we don't have a very familiar, we don't have a familiarity with the workings of the heart.

[00:24:12] And so my intention was to break it down, to remove like all the obstacles. So that's why I was saying like the pre on the track obstacles and then the track obstacles. So, because if you can remove those or overcome each one of those, then you get to the point where you're going, bring it on. I'm booking a session. I'm coming, I'm coming to do the work. And that's the point at which you then do this, the seven step forgiveness made easy process.

[00:24:42] And it's, you do the whole thing in your imagination. And the, what's amazing, it sounds a bit kind of like, but the power of the imagination, I don't know if you've ever done these experiments where you imagine a lemon. Have you ever done that? Where you imagine, you're like cutting a lemon, smelling it, biting into it. And even as I'm talking about it, I can feel my salivary glands going. And that's an imaginary lemon. That's not even a real lemon. So like your body is having a physiological response to something in your imagination.

[00:25:11] So that means that if you can do something that heals you, that feels like you've got, you've said the thing that you've never been able to say to your wife, you know, or your ex, you know, you've been able to say, you've expressed yourself in a safe container. That that can be so relieving because you feel like, well, I've done it. I've said it. I feel like there's somehow there's equilibrium. And what's brilliant about that? So the actual process is 90 minutes. So that's how long a session is with me.

[00:25:41] The getting there can be decades. You might take a really long time to go, actually, I need to get here. I need to do this thing. But the actual process itself is 90 minutes. And I do think of it a bit like a relationship. So like you'd have a courtship and then, you know, you have the preparations before you have the marriage. And the forgiveness process is a bit like an undoing vow. It's like the kind of like almost like the opposite.

[00:26:07] So rather than committing to something, you're releasing what the commitment was. And it's not just about marriage. But you're releasing your attachment to this. You know, you're releasing your resentment. And so that's why it takes a long time for people to kind of get there. But that's what I was trying to do. I was trying to help people to get to the point where they're ready to forgive or at least willing. They might not be completely ready.

[00:26:34] But even like, I mean, I've worked with people who've gone, I will never forgive them for that. And they're sitting with me to do a process. But they're pretty convinced that's never going to happen. And then by the end, they feel an almighty relief because they've done it. What's the main difference between forgiving others and forgiving yourself? The principles are the same as in there's obstacles just like there are to forgiving others. There are obstacles to forgiving ourselves.

[00:27:02] So sometimes we hold on to this to remember, I must never do that again. But actually, you can still remember to not do that again. I don't really need to be beating myself up and, you know, tearing myself apart the whole time. I can still choose. And that's why I think of this work as really empowering because it's kind of giving you back your agency. So it's not contingent on anything. It's just I choose. And in fact, I think there's often three different strands.

[00:27:31] So even like in the case of like somebody who's divorcing their partner, unless you've been a perfect partner, there may be things that you need to be forgiven for as well as things you need to forgive your partner for. And you will need to forgive yourself. So there's kind of like three strands in there. And sometimes they end up all in the same process. Sometimes they end up the self-forgiveness part is different.

[00:27:57] And in fact, funnily enough, I do host like online, you know, like classes for like groups of people. You work with your microphone off. But I do, I hold one specifically for self-forgiveness. And that can be really powerful. And it's slightly longer because there's a bit more to do. Because often I think, I mean, this does happen when you're resenting somebody else. But when you resent yourself, often those old beliefs, like I'm not good enough or I'm a failure or I'm, you know, kind of like I'm too much.

[00:28:24] Those old beliefs are often in there, but you don't want to forgive yourself for those beliefs because they're not true. You want to challenge those beliefs first. And then you want to forgive yourself for what's left. So that's why it takes a little bit longer to do self-forgiveness. But the principles are the same. You're still holding ill will against someone for what they did or didn't do. It just happens to be you.

[00:28:47] So when we talk about forgiving but not forgetting, unpack that for me because that can mean a couple of things to me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't think we do forget. I don't think we do. I mean, you know, of course we forget and all sorts of things, you know, like shopping lists and stuff. But I think the things, the big injuries, we don't really forget them. But what we want to do is we want to, like I said, we want to make peace with them. We want to kind of come into a state of equilibrium about them.

[00:29:17] But it doesn't, what this kind of work does is it sort of takes away all of the extra suffering that's around the outside. That's like, if they've left me or they've betrayed me, then I'm, you know, not good enough, blah, blah, blah. They've taken advantage of me. Like all of the extra meaning making that's around the outside. If you can take that away, you're just left with, this is the end of our marriage. What's the most sane and loving way for us to proceed?

[00:29:46] And that's, that's much, you know, like that's harder in some ways. But you're not forgetting. Because if you keep forgiveness in that very specific definition, like I'm refusing to hold my ill will against you. It may be that they did terrible, terrible things. And you're really glad that you're not going to be in their life anymore. Like you mentioned narcissism. But if you, if you've got a narcissistic partner who doesn't have any empathy for you, that's really tough.

[00:30:14] But you can't change the reality. All you can change is your response. There's that lovely Viktor Frankl quote about, you know, like in, there's a gap. And in that gap between stimulus and response is your, that's your power. It's like you choose how you're going to bring yourself to that moment. Man, forgiveness unpacked. Wow. Anyway, where can my man find you on the internet?

[00:30:40] So my website is forgivenessmadeeasy.co.uk.co.uk because I'm in Britain. And, and then also I am doing more and more things on YouTube as well. I put everything's on my website. And look out forward for her podcast. It's coming. Yeah. One day. But thank you for, for hanging out with us today. I've got, we got to do a part two. I got so many questions. You opened up so much, so much stuff in my mind, but Hey, I appreciate you taking the time

[00:31:09] to hang out with us this, this morning and afternoon. And we're going to go outside off here, but don't go anywhere. But thanks again for hanging out with me. Yeah. Thanks so much. Great questions. That was fun. Hold on.