A Divorce Coach’s personal journey with divorce - Jason Scriven || Don’t Pick the Scab Podcast || David M. Webb

[00:00:00] Welcome everybody up here to Don't Pick the Scab Podcast, a podcast that through special guests finds different superpowers in order for my men over 40 to recover from divorce.

[00:00:09] Welcome to the show, Jason Scriven, a divorce coach that specializes in helping men forgetting their ex and has a four week program to master your separation and has lots of advice and pearls for dating after divorce.

[00:00:24] I call that the whole face and I'm not talking Ace Hardware or True Value.

[00:00:44] Welcome to the Don't Pick the Scab Podcast with the premise of connecting men over 40 with the tools and community to thrive in their divorce recovery either before, during or after a divorce.

[00:00:57] That is definitely the whole face.

[00:00:59] Tell a little bit about yourself, Jason, and I got a couple questions for you. Let's go from there.

[00:01:04] Jason Scriven · David, thanks very much for being here. I like you introduced and like the many of the men who I think are listening to this podcast, I was married 27 years before my ex and I separated.

[00:01:14] Although we had a very good marriage and two wonderful children that came out of it.

[00:01:18] The last few years of the marriage were more like roommates than lovers or people who were married and affectionate with each other.

[00:01:27] And I think it was when we separated, it was definitely traumatic for both of us and for the one child who was still living at home who was in her last year of high school.

[00:01:35] But since then, I've had the opportunity to reconnect with my family, go closer with my friends, do some deep work and therapy on myself, and create an opportunity for me to help other men who were where I was two, three years ago.

[00:01:50] I'm scared, sad, alone, and not really sure what the future look or not really sure who I was.

[00:01:59] And that's was my intention when I started doing, adding on to the coaching work I was always doing in the executive space and adding it, adding sort of a divorce component to that.

[00:02:09] So what's the similarities and differences between divorce coaching and your job coaching?

[00:02:17] What's some similarities that go with that?

[00:02:19] I think for the most part, coaching for me is very person centered.

[00:02:23] So I don't come in with an agenda.

[00:02:25] I come in and try to meet the person where they are today.

[00:02:28] And for people who are going through divorce, that might mean they've had a great day and they want to talk about the future or they've had a terrible day.

[00:02:35] And they need to work through what they're feeling and the emotions that go with that feeling and the meaning that comes with some of those feelings.

[00:02:44] And so those are the similarities to me.

[00:02:47] The obvious differences is that divorce is slightly more emotional and can be slightly more traumatic in terms of the effects it has on your life.

[00:02:56] But you'd be surprised at how similar a big life event can be for somebody when you lose your job or lose your relationship.

[00:03:03] Wow. What about self care? Self care is huge.

[00:03:07] A lot of guys don't practice that.

[00:03:08] And I'm a firm believer that self care is so important because you can't take care of your kids if you don't take care of yourself.

[00:03:15] So there's a little bit of a selfish component there in order to take care of yourself.

[00:03:20] Like when the plans going down and the O2 mask come down, you put yours on first, not your kids.

[00:03:25] Could you be dead?

[00:03:26] I agree with you.

[00:03:28] I think many men spend a lot of their lives setting aside their own needs for the needs of others.

[00:03:34] They sacrifice their own fitness, their own health, their own mental well-being to make to be the stable person in their household.

[00:03:42] To make sure that the kids always have a ride to make sure that you're the calm one in the household if things are getting emotional.

[00:03:51] And like many guys, being strong, which means you can't show your emotions and you can't show the world that you're struggling.

[00:04:00] And I don't know about you and your relationship, David, or where you've been in your life.

[00:04:04] But for me, it was definitely a case of falling into those norms.

[00:04:08] And really, once I was separated and back working with a therapist, giving myself permission to be sad, be angry, and then identifying all the things that I wanted to do to take care of myself so that I could be a good friend, family member, brother, sister, and father to my children.

[00:04:30] And like the second part of that, we talk about the sense of self.

[00:04:34] Many men tie their identity strongly to being a husband after a divorce.

[00:04:38] How did you begin to rediscover your sense of self?

[00:04:42] I think the two ways that men identify and give themselves a sense of self is through the work that they do and their marriage.

[00:04:52] And add this to my story so that in addition to separating, three months later, I lost my job.

[00:05:00] Wow.

[00:05:00] And when we separated, she stayed in the house and I moved in with my parents.

[00:05:05] So how's that for a trifecta in the same summer?

[00:05:08] Man, damn.

[00:05:09] Separate from a wife of 27 years, move in with your parents and lose your job.

[00:05:13] So there was a little bit of anxiety there for me.

[00:05:16] The key that any therapist will tell you is the sense of self is being confident with who you are and not trying to see yourself through the lens of what you do.

[00:05:25] So no matter how good your job is or how much money you make or how a type alpha male you may feel like you are, that's not who you are as the person who shows up when your kids need you, when your family needs you and who shows up authentically when you need help yourself.

[00:05:43] What was the biggest mental shift or realization that allowed you to really move forward after your divorce?

[00:05:50] What was some of the shifts or like the mental shift?

[00:05:54] I think that if unfortunately for me, David, I had made that shift a few years before we actually separate.

[00:06:01] And I was.

[00:06:02] And so when it came time for the actual separation, which was quite challenging, I think I was way ahead of where my ex was.

[00:06:10] And so the mental shift really was something you just talked about, which was how am I going to take care of myself?

[00:06:16] If I prioritize myself over the other person in this marriage, that's not a bad thing.

[00:06:21] And I need it because I'm flailing here.

[00:06:24] I'm drowning in self doubt.

[00:06:26] I'm drowning in anger and sadness.

[00:06:29] And that was the biggest mental shift for me, which was, OK, you've got to put yourself first, because if you can't take care of yourself,

[00:06:36] I can take care of the people in your family that need you the most and be the man that you want to be.

[00:06:40] Were there any positive lessons, insights or changes that came from your divorce experience?

[00:06:46] And let's get to the positive stuff.

[00:06:47] Oh, yeah.

[00:06:48] I I had a great marriage for a long time and my wife was a great supporter of me.

[00:06:54] And I'd like to think that I was of her.

[00:06:56] And so I will never forget that part of our marriage.

[00:07:00] I think that the positives that come out of marriage is the ability, especially when you become people see marriage as a negative thing many times, David.

[00:07:09] But the reality is that a long relationship like that, two people grow apart.

[00:07:13] Now, there's an opportunity in some long term marriages for that for the people to grow back together again.

[00:07:18] Kids leave the house and you reconnect, whatever the changes in life.

[00:07:22] But in some cases, and it was the case for me, is that you become a couple of different people as you age and your job changes and your life changes and maybe in some cases your health changes.

[00:07:32] And so the positive for me that came out of it was realizing that I am a different person now than when I was 25, when I first got married.

[00:07:41] And my needs in terms of my emotional needs and the needs I have of a partner and what I want out of my life were different.

[00:07:47] And that to me, it opened up my whole life for me to be able to say, I want to make changes that are good for me.

[00:07:54] And I started right two days after we said, again, I was while the actual day of the separation was, was very shocking.

[00:08:03] It wasn't planned for me and for my daughter and for my wife.

[00:08:07] And I was quite, I was quite distraught in that initially I started making decisions around things that were important to me, like my health and my physical fitness and, and how much and how I wanted to relate to my children.

[00:08:20] And those have served me pretty well going forward.

[00:08:23] We talked about connections earlier.

[00:08:25] So how do you rebuild connections and community, especially with other men after a relationship loss, especially those who haven't gone through a divorce?

[00:08:35] There's like a discrepancy there between divorce guys and married guys.

[00:08:39] How do you bridge that gap?

[00:08:40] If I could find somebody to tell me that I would ask them too, because all my close friends are also divorced.

[00:08:46] Wow.

[00:08:47] And they had been most, and my closest friends had been divorced a couple of decades before me.

[00:08:52] Wow.

[00:08:53] And I really leaned on them for support.

[00:08:56] Um, I also leaned on other women friends who had gone through divorce.

[00:09:01] And it was, to me, that was the biggest thing to answer your question from my own experience,

[00:09:05] dealing with people who've gone through divorce.

[00:09:07] I think the way you connect with men is you got, with your male friends, is you got to make that connection differently than in the past.

[00:09:14] What's the difference between men and women in terms of how we communicate with our friends?

[00:09:18] Women, when they communicate with their friends, will sit face to face and talk to each other eye to eye and see the emotions that people are going through and share that and try to solve that problem.

[00:09:29] Guys do their talking side to side.

[00:09:32] We're in the car on a road trip.

[00:09:33] We're next to each other at the ball game.

[00:09:35] We're next to each other at the bar.

[00:09:36] We're not face to face.

[00:09:38] We're not facing each other and we're not facing our own problems with somebody because it's embarrassing.

[00:09:45] And I think that's the biggest challenge that I encourage men to make when they want to reconnect with other men is to not only do it face to face, be authentic in how you're feeling, and don't be afraid to tell your buddies you love them.

[00:09:59] Wow.

[00:10:00] That's, it doesn't get said enough, but I think that's, after you say it the first time, it goes a long way.

[00:10:05] Wow.

[00:10:06] What advice would you give to men over 40 who are in the early stages of separation or divorce?

[00:10:13] There's so many emotions going on.

[00:10:15] How do you corral them?

[00:10:16] What's some of the first steps?

[00:10:17] Sure.

[00:10:18] Realize that there's, I like to think that there's three parts to a divorce.

[00:10:22] There's the emotional, there's the financial, and there's the logistical.

[00:10:29] And the sooner you get help with the emotional side, whether that's getting anxiety meds, seeing a therapist, working on things that help with anxiety, like sleep and physical fitness and good diet, the easier you'll be able to take care of the stuff that is, is the stuff that I'm sure you went through in divorce.

[00:10:46] I went through a divorce, which is the financial parts of it and the logistical parts of it.

[00:10:51] Where do we live?

[00:10:53] Who gets the car?

[00:10:54] Who picks up the kids?

[00:10:55] But if you can't take care of yourself on the emotional side, the rest of it is going to be a crapshoot.

[00:11:01] And that to me, that's the priority.

[00:11:02] When if you're a man who's likely, if you're over 40, you're likely going to have kids, you're going to have an established career.

[00:11:08] And the same with your wife in these days.

[00:11:11] And so getting a handle on how do you handle your emotions and not just not putting them aside, but making sure that you understand them.

[00:11:20] You can sit in them and deal with them so that you can make good decisions going forward.

[00:11:25] Because if you make decisions in a state of emotion, it's going to cost you down the line.

[00:11:31] So how do you forget your ex?

[00:11:34] Talk to me, Jason.

[00:11:35] David, I really, I don't think you really do.

[00:11:37] But what I really, but I think is that you can make changes to your life that, that make it easier for your life to not include them.

[00:11:45] One of the things that I like to talk to men about is making new memories.

[00:11:49] Which is, it's unlikely in your, if you're a man of a 40, you're going through divorce, that there's going to be a large geographic separation.

[00:11:55] Sometimes there is.

[00:11:57] Sometimes dad chooses to move out of the, out of state or mom chooses to move to another city and that the family gets broken up and the kids get broken up.

[00:12:05] But for the most part, I think most divorces happen and everybody stays in the same community.

[00:12:10] And so that means that places that you went used to go as a couple.

[00:12:15] Well, who owns that place now?

[00:12:17] And what are the emotions attached to that place?

[00:12:20] My biggest thing about, about forgetting and make is making new memories.

[00:12:24] And so it's not like you're ever going to forget the, for me, the 27 years you spent married to a really wonderful woman where the marriage went bad and you grew apart.

[00:12:32] But you can go to the faith to the restaurant and make new memories there, whether that's with a new girlfriend or with your children or just with, or with buddies.

[00:12:41] You can go to, on trips to places that have great meaning for you, but you can make new memories there because they're positive to you now in a different way.

[00:12:49] And you'll likely see them in a different way.

[00:12:50] I got a story for you, Jason.

[00:12:52] So our first Thanksgiving after the divorce was over, my dumb ass, I invite the ex over for Thanksgiving.

[00:12:59] How long was this after your divorce?

[00:13:01] Oh man.

[00:13:04] It was final in March and Thanksgiving.

[00:13:09] So I invited over for, cause I wanted things to be normal, but things aren't normal after the divorce, man.

[00:13:15] No, they are not normal.

[00:13:16] And how did Thanksgiving go, David?

[00:13:18] Oh, so I learned.

[00:13:20] So I invited over and I cooked and I learned that there's two orifices in a turkey, not just one.

[00:13:27] That's a different story.

[00:13:29] You got the giblets and you got the neck.

[00:13:32] That's right.

[00:13:33] That's cooking for men after 40 potheads.

[00:13:36] One out of two.

[00:13:37] So I had some baked giblets, whatever.

[00:13:39] Yeah.

[00:13:40] And so we had Thanksgiving.

[00:13:42] It was so awkward.

[00:13:43] She didn't stay and help clean up.

[00:13:45] It was just a shit show.

[00:13:47] And, but it was a learning process for me.

[00:13:49] And I was learning to make new memories.

[00:13:52] That was an old memory that I had to let go.

[00:13:54] And since then I just started making new memories.

[00:13:57] And, but you're so right about that.

[00:13:59] That's so right.

[00:14:01] And let me ask you, did you invite her over with good intentions?

[00:14:05] Yes.

[00:14:06] Cause I wanted things to be normal.

[00:14:09] Yeah.

[00:14:09] Yeah.

[00:14:10] But they're not.

[00:14:11] And it's not always, if you and I are talking about men over 40 and I don't want to be in a position where we are demonizing our other halves.

[00:14:19] Because men are just as guilty as this as women in a marriage.

[00:14:22] But the, by making a gesture like that, it can go bad or it can go okay.

[00:14:28] It will rarely go well.

[00:14:30] And I think that I fell into that same trap shortly after, I think from my separation was thinking that it was going to be that the divorce was going to be amicable.

[00:14:40] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:42] And we were, because we were a couple of well-educated adults in a, with seeing the end of a relationship with mostly grown children.

[00:14:51] And it shouldn't have been so complicated, but everybody reacts to divorce a little differently.

[00:14:57] And it, unfortunately for me, it became a little bit, it, it, it, it stopped being collaborative about two months in and became adversarial.

[00:15:05] Mm-hmm .

[00:15:06] And, and that's unfortunate, but I think that's one of the reasons why, when you asked earlier about the steps that you can take is the earlier you can understand how the emotions you're dealing with.

[00:15:15] And the more you think about it as a business transaction, the better it'll go for you, unfortunately, long-term.

[00:15:21] Now it's still going to hurt and there's still going to be people pissed off on both sides.

[00:15:25] But the reality is that divorce is a financial transaction.

[00:15:29] Once you get the emotions out of the way.

[00:15:31] So then fast forward to spring break.

[00:15:34] Yeah.

[00:15:37] Most of the time.

[00:15:38] So I was taking the kids up to Denver and we were going to ride bikes and, and have sushi.

[00:15:43] So she called in, in, in, invited herself.

[00:15:46] And I politely said, this is for dads and kids only.

[00:15:50] So I learned from that, but I was still nice and cordial and to say, no, that's not going to work for me.

[00:15:57] But boundaries is huge.

[00:15:59] Speak to boundaries.

[00:16:00] A lot of men still have boundaries and they need to be realistic boundaries.

[00:16:04] Men are, unfortunately, sometimes put in a hard spot because we want to do the right thing.

[00:16:09] And we don't want to be seen as being too overbearing or too domineering or too demanding.

[00:16:15] And sometimes that can lead to, to caving in or, or letting boundaries react, relax.

[00:16:22] But just like women going through divorce, I think both sides have the opportunity to be able to say, here are the things that I'm comfortable with.

[00:16:28] But for me, neither one of us, thankfully on both sides, neither one of us in my marriage were anxious to speak or to see each other.

[00:16:38] And we haven't seen each other since we separated actually in person.

[00:16:42] But that was good for, I think my mental health for sure.

[00:16:45] And I'm sure for hers, we started communicating almost immediately through the lawyers.

[00:16:49] And while that might be expensive from a mental health point of view, it was well worth the money we spent.

[00:16:56] When I'm 13 years in and I still just pretty much communicate through email and text, that's not a whole lot of voice, but that's my boundary.

[00:17:04] Sure.

[00:17:05] And so I have to accept that.

[00:17:06] The other boundary I would add, David, and I'm sorry to interrupt you there, is no matter your relationship with your ex, if you're separated and living apart and there's still kids in the picture, you can't communicate with your ex through the kids.

[00:17:19] Oh, yeah.

[00:17:20] Tell your mom so and so or make sure your dad does this.

[00:17:23] That's a recipe for disaster.

[00:17:25] And I think the very first time after my wife and I separated and I had coffee with my teenage daughter just to see how she was feeling and talk about stuff.

[00:17:34] But I mentioned something to her and she said, I'm not comfortable with you asking me that.

[00:17:40] And that was the last time I ever instigated conversation about her mom.

[00:17:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:17:44] If she brings her mom up, I'm happy to talk about her and I'm happy to listen to her if she's got something she wants to talk about.

[00:17:50] But if I've got a question for my ex, it goes to the lawyer.

[00:17:53] And that's created a relationship with my kids that is between me and them directly and not having to include another person.

[00:18:01] And what a joy that is being able to have not having to get permission from another person to have a in terms of the kind of relationship you have with your kids.

[00:18:09] Two things on that point in El Paso County, which is the county for Colorado Springs.

[00:18:14] You have to go to a parenting class when you get divorced and not to use the kids as pawns.

[00:18:20] And it's this 1950 looks like a civil defense film.

[00:18:24] Yeah.

[00:18:25] And it's brutal, but you have to sit through it and you've got to be checked off on it.

[00:18:28] But it's simple.

[00:18:29] Don't use the kids as pawns.

[00:18:31] But a lot of people, men and women, both use the kids as pawns.

[00:18:34] But one of my ladies I did a podcast with, she is a co-parenting expert.

[00:18:38] And she says you need to love your kids more than you hate your ex.

[00:18:43] Isn't that the truth?

[00:18:44] Yeah.

[00:18:47] And I was lucky in that while I was frustrated with our divorce process, there were some parts of our marriage that I did not look fondly upon.

[00:18:55] There was never any hate in my vocabulary.

[00:18:58] So I was pretty lucky that way.

[00:18:59] And I think that that kind of advice though, David, is well heated.

[00:19:05] Being able to think about your kids first and love them as much as they need or in a way that they need.

[00:19:11] What's great advice?

[00:19:12] Yeah.

[00:19:13] Let's get to the good stuff.

[00:19:14] Dating after divorce.

[00:19:16] The whole phase.

[00:19:18] Talk to me, Jason.

[00:19:19] I got out there too soon.

[00:19:21] And I realize that now.

[00:19:23] And I didn't feel pretty.

[00:19:25] And it didn't help much, but it was fun.

[00:19:28] But it didn't help me heal.

[00:19:30] Yeah.

[00:19:31] And it was the servicey stuff.

[00:19:32] How did you know it was too soon?

[00:19:34] Yeah.

[00:19:34] Yeah.

[00:19:35] So speak to that to my men over 40, because it's so much out there.

[00:19:38] Oh my God, it's like a candy store.

[00:19:40] It can be.

[00:19:41] And I think that many men over 40 who may be coming back into the dating pool and looking

[00:19:46] at dating apps and thinking like, you're right, it is a candy store.

[00:19:49] All I got to do is swipe right and I can get a date.

[00:19:51] Yeah.

[00:19:52] It wasn't like that when I was a kid.

[00:19:54] I had to work for it.

[00:19:56] The downside to that though, is that it's pretty superficial.

[00:20:00] And yes, there are lots of relationships that have started on dating apps and lots of marriages

[00:20:05] that have started on dating apps.

[00:20:06] But I think that the, for me at least what marriage taught me about dating the second

[00:20:13] time around was it showed me what I didn't want.

[00:20:17] Yeah.

[00:20:17] And rather than going through the checklist of the kind of person that I did want to date,

[00:20:22] it gave me some boundaries in terms of the kind of person that I didn't want to date.

[00:20:27] And for what the green flag then what's a green flag in dating a green flag for me was

[00:20:31] somebody who'd been in a relationship, a long-term relationship for I didn't want any newbies.

[00:20:36] A green flag for me is, is somebody who was okay with me saying no, or was okay to say

[00:20:43] no themselves and didn't, didn't desperately need it.

[00:20:47] And I also for men over 40, please don't date.

[00:20:49] Somebody looks like your ex.

[00:20:51] I kind of happens sometimes.

[00:20:53] Trust me.

[00:20:54] Kind of like the universe goes, we have a, the men have a type.

[00:20:58] Yeah.

[00:20:59] I don't know.

[00:21:00] And that woman's kind of bitchy.

[00:21:02] You, you remind me of somebody.

[00:21:03] Oh my God.

[00:21:04] Unbelievable.

[00:21:05] That's right.

[00:21:06] I'm like, I can't swipe left cause we've already met, but I think I might just let

[00:21:10] you know it's me and not you.

[00:21:11] Oh man.

[00:21:13] And I see dating from the standpoint that you figure out what you don't want.

[00:21:17] Cause I was a master dater and I found out what I didn't so much, man.

[00:21:23] My, my red flag count was so big.

[00:21:27] So I was narrowed the field so quick.

[00:21:29] I was like, damn, I don't like that.

[00:21:31] But my, my thing, my, my fault was I stayed in it too long.

[00:21:37] I stayed in average 18 months and it was always like probably a year too long because

[00:21:42] I was lazy.

[00:21:44] Lazy.

[00:21:45] Yeah.

[00:21:45] Yeah.

[00:21:45] But that's okay.

[00:21:47] Isn't it?

[00:21:47] Because I expect that you'd, for a long time, you'd work really hard and you want, and you

[00:21:53] wanted a little bit of, you'd been having home cooked meals and now you want a little

[00:21:56] bit of fast food and that's all right.

[00:21:58] Metaphor and similes, man, fast food and home cooked meal.

[00:22:01] So yeah.

[00:22:02] Yeah.

[00:22:02] Matter of fact, one woman I stayed with a little bit longer because she was a great cook.

[00:22:07] Oh yeah.

[00:22:08] Yeah.

[00:22:08] She cooked from scratch.

[00:22:09] I was like, oh my God, rub my tummy.

[00:22:11] There you go.

[00:22:12] You made the point earlier though, David, about making an emotional connection.

[00:22:16] And I think that's men that I talked to and it's interesting here in Victoria, BC, there's

[00:22:21] a woman I know her name is Tamara Dell Ellis and she's a dating relationship coach.

[00:22:25] And she almost always exclusively works with people who are over the age of 40 or 50.

[00:22:29] Mm-hmm .

[00:22:30] And the first thing she tells the people that she works with is don't go to dating apps.

[00:22:36] Is, is meet people where you are in your life.

[00:22:40] Now you're not going to date somebody.

[00:22:41] You're not going to be dating somebody that you work with at the dental office.

[00:22:44] And I'm not going to be dating somebody that's-

[00:22:46] Wait a minute.

[00:22:47] Let me stop you.

[00:22:49] That's a story.

[00:22:50] There's a story there.

[00:22:51] So my staff took me out to happy hour one day and they had an intervention.

[00:22:58] They told me, Dr. Webb, you can't date any more patients.

[00:23:02] Oh.

[00:23:03] Yes.

[00:23:03] I had an intervention with my staff.

[00:23:06] So I said, okay, I won't do any more.

[00:23:09] And I've held to that.

[00:23:10] But yeah, it was like shooting fish in a barrel.

[00:23:13] I bet.

[00:23:15] So, okay.

[00:23:15] No more.

[00:23:16] No more.

[00:23:17] Yeah.

[00:23:17] You aside, where do you spend your life other than work and home?

[00:23:21] Where's the places, where's the gym that you go to or the yoga studio or the cycling track

[00:23:25] or the baseball games or the golf?

[00:23:27] For me, it was golf.

[00:23:28] And where can you meet people who are enjoying the things that you enjoy?

[00:23:32] And is there an opportunity for you to be able to say, that's a person who's like me.

[00:23:37] Let's get to know each other in a social way.

[00:23:39] It's scary as hell.

[00:23:40] It's a lot scarier than swipe and write.

[00:23:42] But it's a, but that's the place I think where you will get a more meaningful relationship

[00:23:47] than likely than swiping right on an app because that's based totally on physical appearance.

[00:23:54] Wow.

[00:23:55] So let's dive into your four weeks to master your separation.

[00:23:59] What is that about?

[00:24:00] I think that the, I put together this handy-dandy little list just for the opportunity to be

[00:24:06] up for men to say it's once you, once you first separate or decide upon divorce, there's

[00:24:13] a sort of a cascade of things that come up and you just never know.

[00:24:17] You can get lost in the shuffle of, you know, divorce lawyers and financial analysts and

[00:24:23] ex wanting this and kids wanting that.

[00:24:25] And where do you start with?

[00:24:27] And so that's the reason why I put together that list.

[00:24:30] And here I am unprepared to talk to you about that.

[00:24:32] Cause I was going to have the list.

[00:24:33] I was going to have the list in front of me.

[00:24:38] That's all right.

[00:24:39] That's all right.

[00:24:40] Because what I'm going to do is I'm going to have all your contacts in the show notes.

[00:24:44] So they can, they can look at it.

[00:24:47] But I'll go through the four weeks in general.

[00:24:48] If I mess it up, people can look at it later, but you and I already talked about step one,

[00:24:52] which is taking care of yourself physically and emotionally.

[00:24:56] So go to see a doctor, go to see a therapist, make sure you're getting to sleep, make sure

[00:25:01] you're eating well.

[00:25:02] If you need to take meds to control your anxiety or possibly depression based on what's

[00:25:07] going on in your marriage, do that.

[00:25:08] The key is you want to get through the, that part of it and get yourself in a place where

[00:25:13] you can start making good decisions.

[00:25:15] So week two, let's start to make some plans.

[00:25:19] Let's talk to a divorce lawyer.

[00:25:21] Let's talk to a financial analyst.

[00:25:23] Let's start to make, let's start to think about where we want to go and what we want

[00:25:27] to do so that we have the people around us to make good logistical decisions and think

[00:25:34] about our life post-divorce.

[00:25:35] It's not going to become that easy, but those are the steps you need to take because whether

[00:25:39] you think you can go into a divorce and do it yourself and just mediate it, it's unlikely

[00:25:44] that's going to happen.

[00:25:45] I've known a few people, including some people in my family who've got through divorce

[00:25:48] like that, but it's rare, David, that you'll be able to make it through without talking

[00:25:53] to a professional.

[00:25:54] Week three, then let's start to actually think about where you're going to go.

[00:25:58] Okay.

[00:25:59] So these are actual logistical decisions of where am I going to live?

[00:26:03] You don't have to make this decision now, but now start to think about that because the

[00:26:07] sooner you get that kind of stuff in place, the easier it'll be for you to work with your

[00:26:10] lawyer on decisions going forward.

[00:26:12] What kind of custody do I want?

[00:26:13] Where do I want to live?

[00:26:15] Is this going to impact my job?

[00:26:16] Will I have to relocate?

[00:26:18] How is my life going to be different now that I'm single and maybe a single person?

[00:26:23] I'm single parent.

[00:26:23] And so then that week that prepares you for week four, which is essentially starting to

[00:26:27] execute those plans and move forward.

[00:26:29] You keep going with the therapy.

[00:26:31] You keep going with taking care of yourself.

[00:26:33] You work closely with your lawyer.

[00:26:35] That's right.

[00:26:36] Essentially, if you've done that work, then that prepares you for the, in your case, 18

[00:26:41] months and in my case, almost four years of slogging through the process, the paperwork and the back

[00:26:46] and forth between lawyers and the slowness of the legal system to get even a cordial divorce finished.

[00:26:54] But the idea about the first four weeks is to put yourself in a position where you can make good

[00:26:58] decisions going forward and make decisions for you in your best interest and the best interest of your kids.

[00:27:03] All right, Jason, my guys have about a 30 minute attention span.

[00:27:08] We're right at the limit then now.

[00:27:10] Like perfect, man.

[00:27:11] You like hit it.

[00:27:12] So tell the people where to find you and I'll put them in the show notes and go from there.

[00:27:16] But let's know people out there where to find you.

[00:27:18] I'd appreciate that, David.

[00:27:20] The best place for people to find me is on the web at my website, which is Scriven program.com.

[00:27:27] They can also find me at under the Jason Scriven on Twitter and divorce 101 is my Instagram handle where I talk about divorce topics on a daily basis.

[00:27:36] Okay.

[00:27:37] Jason, thank you very much.

[00:27:38] This has been interesting.

[00:27:40] We definitely got to come back, man.

[00:27:41] We only scratched the surface.

[00:27:43] There's so much other stuff.

[00:27:44] I want to ask you.

[00:27:45] 30 minutes goes quick.

[00:27:46] Doesn't it trust me?

[00:27:47] All right.

[00:27:48] Hold on to the line and everybody.

[00:27:50] Good night out there.

[00:27:51] We'll see you next time.

[00:27:52] Thanks, Jason.